The Femme Fatal
True Crime - Femme Fatale Style
The Femme Fatal tells the stories of women who commit crimes, blending true crime, pop culture, and astrology to explore power, obsession, and the darker side of femininity.
The Femme Fatal
Sadist Socialite: Delphine LaLaurie
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On this episode of The Femme Fatal podcast, we’re heading to New Orleans, where beauty, wealth, and status masked something far more sinister.
Delphine LaLaurie was everything society admired elegant, influential, untouchable. But behind the doors of her Royal Street mansion, something horrifying was unfolding.
When a fire broke out in 1834, the truth didn’t just come to light, it forced its way out.
This week, we’re talking cruelty, power, and one of the most disturbing discoveries in true crime history. And of course, we’ll break down the astrology behind it all.
Royal Street Mansion Ghost Tour
Welcome to the Femme Fatal, a true crime podcast with an astrology twist. I'm your host, Stacey Dotson. Each week I'll be joined by a guest host because this femme fatal prefers not to work alone. Welcome to the femme fatal. Today I'm joined by Brian.
SPEAKER_01Hi, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00He's gonna talk about the Sadis socialite. Delph I can't Delphine LaLaurie. Is that how I say it, Delphine?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Maureen Delphine McCarty Lawlerie.
SPEAKER_00Ah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Commonly called Madame Lawlerie.
SPEAKER_00Madame Lawlerie. Okay. What made you want to talk about her?
SPEAKER_01First of all, she's just an interesting person. There's a lot of historical relevance. To back up, the reason why I know anything about her, wife and I, we got married in 2002. We're old. So at the time, we're broke students. We had no money. So we decided to go on our honeymoon. We went to New Orleans. Two things I absolutely love history and architecture. So going to New Orleans made sense. And so we're walking around the French quarter and we found that there was a ghost tour. So my third passion, if there's anything creepy, yeah, you know, like I love all those things. So we go and we do this ghost tour, and we're walking around, and uh we get to this one house on Royal Street, and they're telling us the history of it and stuff. And I was like, I've got to learn a lot more about this because this person just sounds like there's some you know, backstory to this. So, you know, you go on one of these tours, you hear things like this, you know, it's like there's probably some embellishment to this story. Yeah, but there's obviously gotta be some truth to this, right? Right. But apparently it's one of the most haunted places in New Orleans. So that immediately piqued my interest. And I was like, oh no, I gotta find out more about this. So when I heard that you were doing this podcast, yes, I came to you and I was like, hey, yes, if I can, this is the person I'd love to do. And you're like, yep, let's do this.
SPEAKER_00Put it on the schedule. Yep. That's a great explanation as to why. So let's dive in.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So uh Marie Delphine McCarty LaLerie. She was born in 1787 and she died in 1849. So, why is she important? You know, what do we need to know about her? Things like that. So she was a wealthy New Orleans socialite. She grew up in like the high society, her parents were high society and all that stuff. Unfortunately, what she's known for is how she treated enslaved people that lived with her. So yeah, not a great backstory to this person.
SPEAKER_00That is a terrible story that you're about to get into, but it's horrible.
SPEAKER_01So let's see, she was born Marie Delphine McCarty on March 19th, 1787, in New Orleans. So at the time, New Orleans was part of Spanish Louisiana, but she was born to a very prominent Creole family. Family had a lot of wealth, things like this. Her dad was uh Luis Bartholomew de McCarty, wealthy plantation owner. But before that, he was a military guy, did a lot of things with the military. So prominent family, but he was also a wholesaler. He was known for shipping things up and down the Mississippi. That's where he made his money. But he purchased land back in 1787. He had additional land grants in 1795. So as we're getting into the story, yeah, I just want you to keep things in mind. Okay. Like, where do these patterns of behavior begin? You know, I've got a psychology background. Yeah. So that's where learning. I had no idea about that. Yeah. That's my master's degree, is in industrial organizational psychology. Not clinical, but psychology is my thing. Okay. But all along here, learning more about her is like, oh, maybe some of these things were learned patterns of behavior. Yeah, it triggers. So he was a wholesale merchant. He bought some land, sold some land. He was known for having a very large estate. But like most of the wealthy landowners at the time, how does he get labor?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Slave labor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he had enslaved people living on his land, right? So uh yeah, we'll come to find out she did not treat her enslaved people very well. Was this a learned pattern behavior? Ah. Also, as you well may know, there was uh quite a bit of information to find out about dad, but mom, there's not a whole lot. She came from a prominent Creole family. There probably is out there. And again, when I was doing my research, I tried focusing on things that were easily vetted. There's a lot of history and folklore, and I love folklore. Give me a good horror story, give me a good scary story. I absolutely love that. But you know, what's real, what's not real. But unfortunately, there's not just a whole whole lot that I could find about mom. Was she an only child? Honestly, not off the top of my head. I don't know that. Okay. So family originally came from Ireland around the 1730s, but she had powerful family. Her uncle, Esteban Rodriguez Miro, uh-huh. He was a governor of Spanish Louisiana in Florida. So, cousin Augustine de McCarty, he later became mayor of New Orleans from 1815 to 1820. So, setting a little backstory. She comes from prominence, she comes from high society, she comes from power, she comes from privilege. Here's another few things that will come along. Talking about something else with a friend, and it was like history. You know, basically time is just a gigantic circle. Things that we see in uh modern society, yeah. People that get away with things that should not get away with things.
SPEAKER_00It's happening again. I mean, it was always happening, but it's a lot more in the forefront right now.
SPEAKER_01It's almost as if we never learn from our mistakes, huh?
SPEAKER_00No, yeah. All right.
SPEAKER_01All right, okay. Obviously, she grew up in high society. So she grew up around enslaved labor, she grew up around this. So part of my question is the way she treated people was this patterns of behavior that she saw, she observed throughout her life. But we also have to think, let's make sure that we're putting things in contextual time. Okay. Right. So what you and I know as this is okay, this is not okay, things were different then. That's not saying that it's right, it was right, but these were acceptable practices.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Correct?
SPEAKER_00In the South specifically.
SPEAKER_01Correct. So as we know, the French colonies, especially Louisiana, a lot of the enslaved labor came from like Haiti and places like that. So, what were some of the things that were going on around that period of time? In uh 1791, there was a Haitian revolution. So terrified slave owning societies throughout the Caribbean and American South. There was a massive uprival of enslaved people fighting against their slave owners and stuff. Right. So obviously that's going to be some tension. In 1811, there were slave revolts that started in Louisiana, uh including the German Coast Uprising. So obviously, amongst the people that have enslaved people working on their plantations, you've got all these things going on. So those people are doing those things, and we can't allow those people to do those things. Right. How do you keep people under control? Depression and violence. Depression and violence. Right. Okay. A few things to keep in your head as we start going a little bit farther down this story. What else do we know about her?
SPEAKER_00So, from what I understand, this was her third husband. I'm jumping ahead. So she was married several times.
SPEAKER_01Let's start with husband number one. Let's start with that. Okay. She was born in 1787. She was first married in 1800. 13. Wow. Remember what we just said? Yes. Just because it happened doesn't mean that it was right. Correct. But these are acceptable practices.
SPEAKER_00At that time, yes.
SPEAKER_01Right. He was older than her, but not much older. I don't remember exactly how old he was, but so she was only 13. Have you ever been around a 13-year-old? Yes. I couldn't imagine, you know, being like, I'm going to take this 13-year-old child and marry them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as my bride. Is this fathers selling off their daughters, if you will, for lack of a term? Is that being practiced at this time? Dowries and all that stuff? More than likely.
SPEAKER_01More than likely, it's that kind of situation because the first husband, again, I'm going to mess up every name that I'm going to talk about.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But Don Ramon de Lopez Angelo. Anjulo.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01So what's G. Anyway. So Spanish royal officer. Dad was in the military. High-ranking military official. So he marries off his daughter to this guy when she is 13 years old. 1804. He gets a good gig. He gets this job. He's going to be a uh Spanish consul general.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So they decide, let's pack up, let's leave New Orleans, and we're going to head to Spain. So they pack up. Now keep in mind, this is obviously before steamship, so we don't have anything like that. So they're probably getting on a boat. They're not getting on an airplane or anything. Right. So they're going to make their way to Spain, but they end up going by the way of Cuba.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So they start heading towards Spain. They stop off in Cuba. They've been married for four years. He suddenly dies in Havana. First husband dies in Havana. As far as the history books can factually tell us, there's no foul play or anything that happens here. But at this point, she's what, 17, 18 years old? First husband passes. But shortly thereafter, she gave birth to her first daughter.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so he was the father of her first daughter. And she's given birth at 17-ish. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Right. She returns back to New Orleans because he was a very wealthy man. So she inherits the wealth. Nice. So she moves back to New Orleans. She has the wealth from first husband. She's now 17, 18 years old. She has a young child.
SPEAKER_00Single mom.
SPEAKER_01Single mom. But she comes back with money. So second husband, uh, Jean Blanc. Okay. She marries him in 1808. At this point, she's 21 years old. Still young, you know. Right. More appropriate married. More appropriate age marriage. That's a whole different thing. So married in 1808, they ended up buying a house together at 409 Royal Street in Nola, which, by the way, it's right down the street from the house that we'll eventually talk about.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Which, if you're looking on Zillow, it is currently for sale. The last time I looked at it.
SPEAKER_00Wait, it is for sale?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was like $4 million or something insane. So this is her starter home. This is her starter home. Look it up on Zillow. This is her starter house. She and second husband, Jean Blanc, they get married in 1808. They buy a home at 409 Royal Street, which is awesome. It's a beautiful place. I don't know if you like that Spanish colonial, French Creole.
SPEAKER_00I love all the architecture in New Orleans. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_01You know, I'd say go to the French quarter during the day, grab you a drink, walk around, look at sites. Once the sun starts going down, get out of there. It's not even as fun. But that's the difference. Not anymore, yes. So Jean Blanc, he is a banker, lawyer, merchant, legislator, and slave trader. She's got elite taste. So he was known for participating no less than 335 slave transfers over 13 years.
SPEAKER_00From what I've heard, slaves were purchased and they would go for like $1,000 to $1,500, which is like several hundred thousand dollars today.
SPEAKER_01Right. The crazy thing is he never owned a plantation. Okay. You don't actually own a plantation, but you have over 335 that we know of that can be factually documented. He has transferred, basically bought and sold, over 335 people over the course of 13 years. He doesn't have a plantation.
SPEAKER_00So he's a slave trafficker.
SPEAKER_01We're catching on. Yeah. Okay. So by the way, this part is highly frowned upon. Now it's okay to have them. Yeah. It's okay, you know, like if you need a cup of sugar, you know, come over to my house, I'll give you a cup of sugar, right? Right. That'd be like if I sell you a dime bag of weed, yeah, we can still go to church together. It's fine. It's okay. Meet me out in the parking lot, you know? Yeah. But if you hear that I'm dragging kilos of cocaine across the border from Mexico, I'm probably not going to be invited back to Bible study. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So it's funny that some of these practices are completely acceptable. Marrying a 13-year-old is acceptable. Owning people is acceptable, but you're buying and selling all these people and you don't have land for it. No. That's not acceptable. I mean, it's not illegal, but it's frowned upon.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01In high society. So, anyways, obviously he's politically influential and financially successful. So he's a very well-known guy. People know him, people probably like him that get something from him, you know, that he, you know, benefited from him.
SPEAKER_00Does that sound Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, all right, okay. All right. Am I driving that point okay? Yes, you are driving it home. So they had four children together. I tried looking these names up because it just seems a little bit odd that we have Marie Louise Pauline, Louise Marie La Lerie, Marie Louise Janae, and then Jean-Pierre Pauline Blanc. Apparently, from everything that I could see, that this relationship was successful. They seem to be a good couple. They seem to be happy, healthy together, and everything. It does still make you wonder because they had enslaved people, where there's going on at this point, but we don't know. There's no indications that there was any any shenanigans happen at this point in her life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 335. Right.
SPEAKER_01That is a lot. Right. But also, if he is making these transactions, I'm just gonna step out on limb here and even say by those days standards, he's not a good dude.
SPEAKER_00Oh, of course not.
SPEAKER_01All right, okay. This is me asserting my opinion into something that where it probably doesn't belong, but you know, I'm just gonna say that.
SPEAKER_00That's what this show is about.
SPEAKER_01All right, okay. So we don't know exactly what happened, but uh Blanc died in 1816. So this is husband number two, second time she's been widowed. But again, this guy was more wealthy and more powerful and more influential than husband number one. So she's just rolling in the dough. Yeah, right. She marries smart, correct?
SPEAKER_00So either young and rich.
SPEAKER_01Right. So now she's got money, she's got land, and she's got her own cash of enslaved people. Right.
SPEAKER_00And the starter home.
SPEAKER_01And the starter home. So he passes, she moves on. So third husband comes along. Now, in between second husband and third husband, there's a little stretch of time. So by this time, she's probably thinking, look, I've done this twice. Yeah. I've got money, I've got power, but I don't have to work. I'm just gonna be a girl out on the town, you know, me and the besties, we're just gonna go hang out, you know. We're gonna go in the quarter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're just gonna go pray.
SPEAKER_01We're just gonna walk around, have some fun together. I don't need no man. I'm just gonna do my own thing, right? Third husband comes along. Now she marries him June 25th, 1825. By this time, she's 38 years old. Okay. So she's a made woman, she's got her own money, she's got her own status, she's got her own power. But also keep in mind, this is a place and time where women didn't have status and power. And rights. And rights. Yeah. Correct. But what does she own? What does she have? Well, money and slaves. Right. And land. She has all the things that all the rich white dudes have. So inherently she's got power. Probably nearly as much in the eyes of everybody else, but this is what she has. So she marries third husband, Dr. Leonard Luis Nicholas La Lerie. They get married on June 25th, 1825. Now he's a French physician and he's 15 younger than she is. 15 years younger. She went for a younger man. She was like, Hey, it's my time. He wanted a sugar mob. Exactly. He's a physician. He comes into it with his own money, but he's probably looking at her going, Hey, she's got the dough. Right. But this marriage was contentious. They did not get along well, it appears. Right. So they're married in 1825. Just a few years later in 1832, she petitioned the court for legal separation. She decides she's not going to be with this guy anymore. She says he treats me badly. So basically, this is the what's the modern equivalent? Irreconcilable differences.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01Right? Okay. Despite the conflict, he still lives there off and on. Now, we'll get to it in a little bit more detail, but there are indications that he never truly lived full time at the house. He would leave and he would go stay with other people. Right. We don't know who. I would love to venture a guess here.
SPEAKER_00Oh, she's a beard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I just got that when you said that. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. She's a beard. Me and the buddies are gonna go play golf this weekend. And uh you could stay here by yourself, right? Right. I can't prove anything. I'm just curious. So, anyways, 1832, they petitioned for a separation. Things aren't going so well. He doesn't live there full time at the house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we're gonna fast forward. This is where things really, really started going downhill.
SPEAKER_00Wait, did you say already, did they buy the house together or did he already own the house?
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm sorry. By this time they had bought the house, she actually built the house.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01She built the house.
SPEAKER_00She built the house when she was living her own life thinking she's gonna be correct.
SPEAKER_01Right. So the house was 1140 Royal Street in the French Quarter. They're both on Royal Street. Okay. So they're they're not too far apart from each other. Which, by the way, if you go, the house is absolutely phenomenal. Parts of the main structure are still there, but it's a private residence now, and it's absolutely amazing to see. The house was completed in 1832. So about the time that they're getting separated. Separated, the house is completed. Let's recap everything that's going on. She gets married, husband number one dies on the way to his new job. She comes home, meets other guy, they build a house together, well, they live in this house together. He tragically passes. He owns a whole bunch of enslaved people. I'm just gonna venture a guess that he's not treating these people fairly. She meets husband number three, and while she's meeting husband number three, she's a woman out on the town. She's just doing her own thing, living her own life. She's a socialite, she's throwing all these big parties, she's the Paris Helton of her day. Yes. Right? You know, she's just out there going to the clubs, dancing, doing all those things, having a great time, right? So 1831, she buys the property at 1140 Royal Street.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Builds this massive house. It's completed in 1832. So from the outside, you look at it, it's just absolute refinement. Just the architecture to it. However, on the inside, not a lot of great things were happening. The people that would go there, they would say that, yes, she had her enslaved people, but they looked haggard, tired. They looked worn down. Some of them looked like they had been physically abused.
SPEAKER_00They built the house while they were married. Once the house was built in 1832, the same year they applied for separation.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Historians have said that he never lived there full time. There were some things that said that he never really lived there at all. They basically lived separate lives, and that's going to come into play here in a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So her enslaved people, the people that were actually, you know, working in the home. Right. They were not living a good life. Let's leave it at that. Right. And there were multiple accounts of people be walking by at night and you could hear screams from the court. Okay. So there was obviously signs of things going awry inside the house. That people just ignored. Right. So all along there were signs of abuse. So people noticed, people heard things. So there were a lot of indications that obviously she was doing a lot of bad things. So here's one of the first main events that really tips off authorities that things are not good. Madame Laurie, she's upstairs, and one of her young enslaved women is pursuing her hair. Now either the comb slipped or something, but it snagged her hair. Okay. And so the enslaved girl's name is Leah. She pulls her hair. More than likely unintentional. Madame Laurie snaps at her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Starts chasing her. So the girl, why would she run? Why would she be so scared? This is obviously an accident, right? Yes. Why would somebody be instantly that scared afraid that I'm going to die?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because you know who she is.
SPEAKER_01Correct. So without thinking, she just runs straight up to the roof. Lallerie is chasing her with a whip across the roof.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01There are multiple accounts, multiple different reports of how the story ends. This story either ends with the girl seeing that she's already recognized her fate and she knows that if she stays, she's gonna be tortured.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So she chooses to jump.
SPEAKER_00Ah.
SPEAKER_01Or I don't know if this is more gruesome, but the other accounts are that Madame Lollerie caught her and actually pushed her off the roof of the of the house. Either way, the story ends the same. Obviously, this is something you cannot hide. What happens behind closed doors, who knows, right? You know, you could be a good person to in your church group, you know, to your co-workers, to the people at the grocery store, but you may treat your family terrible once you get inside those closed doors, right? This is something you can't hide.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so when she fell off, she fell in the front. Right out into the street. Right out into the street. Right out into the street.
SPEAKER_01And this is one of the main key highlights of the if you do the ghost tour in New Orleans, which I'm not trying to sell a New Orleans package, but if you go, it's a great one.
SPEAKER_00I did the Jack the Ripper tour in London and I just loved it. It was so amazing. And the weather was perfect. It was foggy and misty.
SPEAKER_01So that's like perfect for that. It was, it was. Obviously, this is not one that you can hide because Leah is dead on the ground. And more than likely, it's at the front of the house. And you know, this is Royal Street. You know, now obviously there's cars going up and down the street, but at the time there's got to be horse and buggies and people walking. So you're going to notice a dead girl in the street. So uh authorities, they do investigate. Delphine was found guilty of cruelty. So her power. Punishment? She had to forfeit some of her enslaved people. That's it. That's it. So does this sound familiar whatsoever? Maybe not the exact circumstances, but she has to forfeit her enslaved people. So she's like, okay, fine, I'll give those up. Hey, I have these enslaved people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Would you like to purchase some enslaved people? Because I've got to give them up, right? So who does she sell them to?
SPEAKER_00Her family and friends, right? Am I right?
SPEAKER_01100%. Let me cut you a sweetheart deal. Yeah. Right? Boy, do I have a deal for you. So her friends and family purchase these enslaved people.
SPEAKER_00But where does the money go? Because her punishment was to forfeit, but she gets to profit off her punishment.
SPEAKER_01Oh my God, this is terrible. But if you think about, let's say you've got a barn full of cars, right? And you go down on drug charges, whatever, police auction that stuff off, right? Right. So more than likely, you say, Hey, by the way, there's a police auction. Go buy my Ferrari. Go buy my car. Go buy this. And then your loved one says, Okay, cool, here you go. I'm going to bring it right back to you. Wow. I can't even imagine these enslaved people. Well, first of all, there's no way in the world I can imagine the life that they had to live in the best of conditions. Right. But you live in the worst of conditions.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01You're now told that you have a chance of being out from underneath this house. You're going to go somewhere else, and you're just going, please be better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You get sold only to find out you're going right back where you came from. Uh God. So this culminates to 1834. On April the 10th, 1834, uh, fire breaks out at the house. Now, the details of what exactly happened and why are very sketchy. But fire breaks out in the house. So, you know, you think of a modern day, you know, police ambulance fire response shows up to your house, similar, but the fire brigade shows up to the house and they're going inside the house and they find that there is a 70-year-old enslaved woman attached to the stove.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01She is permanently attached to the stove. She set the house on fire. How bad were your living conditions that you're like, I would much rather die by a fire? Right.
SPEAKER_00So she used the stove. She set the house on fire.
SPEAKER_01She used the stove to set the house on fire.
SPEAKER_00So she was permanently chained to that stove. Oh no.
SPEAKER_01This is her living conditions. She's attached to a stove and she's looking around at her surroundings and she knows that there's other enslaved people in this house. Yeah. And she makes the decision, and I will never fault somebody for a decision that they have to make. But how bad was her life that she thought me doing this and affecting everybody else that's inside this house is better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They would all rather go out in a fire than continue to be with her.
SPEAKER_01Correct. So initially she survived the fire.
SPEAKER_00Wait, initially she survived the fire.
SPEAKER_01I mean, she obviously she ends up succumbing to her injuries. I couldn't find if there were any, did anybody speak to her or whatever? There's no real written record of that. That was another thing I was thinking. It's like, more than likely she's a person of faith. I'm assuming here, but yeah, historically speaking, more than likely she's a person of faith. I just could imagine you look up and you're like, okay, please forgive me. This is what I gotta do, right? You know, to get out of this. Anything that you give me is gonna be better than what I'm living in currently. You go through all that. Could you imagine if she opened her eyes and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm still here? You know, yeah. I'm hoping that that didn't happen. That, you know, hopefully she passed peacefully. Not everybody that was involved in the fire ended up dying. How badly was the house burned? It was a large percentage of the house. Okay. Large percentage of the house was consumed. Because again, think about it. We don't have modern high-pressure fire nozzles and hoses and stuff. So but the fire broke out. Neighbors said the firefighters, they forced their way in, of course, naturally as they would. They went up into the attic, and what they found in the attic was just absolutely grotesque and gruesome. There are people that are chained to the walls. There are people that have obviously suffered very, very physical violence. There are obvious signs of torture, potential mutilation, and all sorts of stuff. Now, this is where I would prefer to venture away from the lore because if you go down the path of the lore, there's a lot of extremely grotesque, you know, murder porn stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I personally don't like that. That is not appealing to me. Just knowing that any human being was chained to a wall and was severely tortured is bad enough. That's gruesome enough, right? Yeah. So fire breaks out, neighbors find out, they end up rescuing people out of the attic. What they find out obviously shocked everybody. Because, you know, you think, oh, this is my neighbor. This is sitting right down the street from me, right? So the New Orleans bee, they talk about it, several enslaved people that were alive but in horrific condition. But again, chained to the wall. Yeah. Chained to the ceiling, you know, uh emaciated. They're being starved, covered from head to toe and wounds. Just extreme inhumane, right? Horrible. Right. But also, some of the people were, you know, barely able to walk to the rescue. Victims later died from their injuries, unfortunately. But also, bodies were found buried in the courtyard. So this is not related to the fire.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00So I believe the fire is what opened the door for everyone to see what was going on.
SPEAKER_01Correct, correct. And if you've been to New Orleans, you'll know that, you know, especially these big massive houses, you know, we have fences behind our house, right? Yes. You know, so basically it's kind of a similar concept, but they have courtyards. But none of the courtyards are that massive. One report said that there were up to 12 people that were, including a child.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_01Buried out in the back in the courtyard. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I know. It's like, do we need a minute to sit with this?
SPEAKER_00Super heavy. Right.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Here's where if you're not angry, you're gonna get angry.
SPEAKER_00If I'm not angry enough already.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Okay. So again, here's people, enslaved people. Right. Found in horrific conditions. We found people in the courtyard. We found all sorts of tragedy happening all around us, right? The mob comes along, and of course everybody's upset because again, it's okay to own somebody, but there's still I'm doing uh the air quotes here, there's still ethical treatment of your enslaved people, right? So they're not okay with what she did or how she behaved. So they all want to go and storm the house, obviously. I'm assuming we want a little street justice. Right. Right. If she's not gonna be taken in, the police aren't gonna, you know, they're gonna drag their feet and you know, put her up in a club med uh jail for a while. We ain't having that. So what does she do? Skips town. Now, obviously, she doesn't have a cell phone, but I just see her going to anybody that she knows that cares about her whatsoever. Hey, I need your help. I need to get out of town, right? So she finds somebody, takes her by a carriage to the waterfront, hops on a boat, goes to Mobile, Alabama. Nobody knows what's going on. She's got safe passage, gets to Mobile, Alabama. From Alabama, she hops on a boat and goes to Paris, France.
SPEAKER_00That's where she lives out her days.
SPEAKER_01And that's where she lives out the rest of her life.
SPEAKER_00That is just Enraging. You're right. It's enraging. Right? You're just like, you know, it's one of those things. I'm not trying to get religious or whatever, but like it's one of those things where you're like, please let there be a hell.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. It's like, where's the justice in this? Right. So she does all these unspeakable acts. Now, I don't know necessarily that she was in the house at the time. I'm assuming that she was in the house. Okay. Maybe she saw the fire and she got out, she escaped, she ran. I don't know. There's so many questions that I have. I'm like, was there a public search for her? Did the police go looking for her? Did they go to husband's and uh wherever he was staying at the time? Yeah, did he go with her? No. At the time, Dr. Lollerie, he wasn't at the house. Okay. Eventually, the police go to talk to him. Hey, where were you on the night of, right? And he's like, oh, hey, I wasn't there. Yeah. I was over here with my boyfriend. I meant uh with my friend. My friend. I was at my friend's house. We were watching the golf channel and uh not doing other things. He says that he wasn't there. I didn't live there. I know nothing. You know, oh my gosh, she was doing what? Oh my goodness, what happened, right? But there's a little heated rivalry, right? Right. But there's also stories, there's also accounts that he knew exactly what was going on. He was talking to her about how she was treating the enslaved people, saying, Hey, you cannot be doing this. You cannot be treating people this way. Yeah. Basically, she looks at him and says, You need to get out, or you're gonna be buried out in the courtyard with them. Wow. So, you know, being the big, strong, tough man he is, he's like, later, I'm just gonna do so. I'm gonna head right on out, right? So guess what? No charges ever brought up.
SPEAKER_00God.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's terrible. Keep going, sorry.
SPEAKER_01So if you're keeping score at home, here are 12 dead bodies in the backyard. Here are enslaved people that are in the attic, some alive, some not. All very, very rough shape.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Here's a woman that set herself on fire attached to the stove. There's a lot of crime that's happened.
SPEAKER_00That is a lot.
SPEAKER_01Not to mention Leah, who jumped off the roof. Right. Not one person who is responsible serves justice for it. At all. At all. Are you mad yet?
SPEAKER_00I'm yeah. I'm mad since the first thing. I mean since the hairbrush. Right.
SPEAKER_01Dr. Law Labree, he stays. His reputation is ruined.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01So there are reports that he never officially practiced again. He can't live in high society anymore. Basically, he's being ostracized from high society. Court of public opinion, yeah. Court of public opinion got to him. And uh yeah, so he couldn't work and he lost all of his friends. So Delphine LaLerie, she dies in on December 7th, 1849. She dies in Paris, France. So there's some debate there. I saw some accounts that she came back to New Orleans or she wanted to come back to New Orleans. There's one story that she did write her son and said basically, hey, love you, miss you. I'm gonna come see you soon. But there's no dock records or anything of her officially coming back. Had she, she would have had to come back under an assumed alias. I would assume that if you're walking around town, somebody would recognize you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So but especially since she was like such a social light. Right. Do you know anything about her children? Like their lives? No, I did not really get into that.
SPEAKER_01I did not really look into the children's lives.
SPEAKER_00Hopefully they didn't learn any of that behavior.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Let's do some math real quick. The fire was 1834. She had kids starting in 1808. Correct. Ish is when she had kids. So yeah, her kids were all in there. They were grown up. Yeah, they were all in there. They were grown up when all this was going on, when the fire happened. So like I get why she's still talked about today. Plus the house. Like, what is it like you've been on the tour. What do they talk about? How do they how do they portray her on the tour? Oh it's a paid tour. Paid tour, right? Where does the money go?
SPEAKER_01To the tour company.
SPEAKER_00The tour company?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It'd be nice if they did something like a foundation or, you know.
SPEAKER_01Right. No, it goes to the tour company. But I mean the tour company, you know, that's what they do. They embellish stories. She's made out to be an absolute monster, which, you know, to be fair, she is definitely a monster.
SPEAKER_00She was a monster. I mean, there's no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_01Right. By textbook definition, she really is a serial killer. Yeah, right. She is a serial killer, yes. But not in the traditional sense that we would think. That's where the psychology in me comes out. It's like, yeah, does she feel justified? This is a patterned behavior. It has to be patterned behavior, right?
SPEAKER_00I think that she did not consider them human. And so it was the way she was able to disassociate. Somehow she justified that white privilege. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01A thousand percent. So dad has enslaved people.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Her first husband has enslaved people, second husband definitely had enslaved people. Yes. She has been around this her whole life. So I can't assume that she just chose one day, I'm just going to be this heinous, ugly, vile human being towards our enslaved people. She saw the uprisings. She saw what happens when those people gather together and they go up against the plantation owners. Was there a specific? Right.
SPEAKER_00It was almost like language. You know, you're around and people speak, and that's the language you speak.
SPEAKER_01Correct. It has to be something that she learned. But I honestly believe that in her head, she probably felt completely justified in what she was doing. Yeah. Right. So she's known as one of the most notorious slave abusers in American history.
SPEAKER_00So do you have any idea how many victims there were?
SPEAKER_01The exact number is unknown. But records from the property show 12 people died at the mansion. Right. Right. After the fire, seven enslaved people were found alive upstairs in the attic. Now, two of those people did die later on. Yes. Right. So you have accounts that there were so many more bodies in the backyard. There's accounts that it could have been upwards to 50 to 100 people, all sorts of things. But at least 12 to 15 people have been proven. Okay. That number could obviously be way, way higher. So, but here it is. She does all these heinous acts and she just takes off her pairs and gets to live out of the house. Right.
SPEAKER_00One of the best cities.
SPEAKER_01There's no retribution, there's no conviction, there's no trial, there's no case, there's no nothing against her. Okay. Let's talk about the house. So again, started off with as a person that loves architecture, loves history, loves all things, you know, spooky ghost stories and stuff. This is something that we both have in common. We both love architecture, right? You know? So we went digital. And spooky stories. Yeah, and spooky stories, which works out great, right? For this podcast. Yes, it does. So we first did the tour in 2002. And we went back a number of years later and we took the tour again. Why not? You know, go back on the tour. And for the most part, everything was the same. But at the time, Gabby was like, uh, and this house that was formerly owned by Nicholas Cage. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I was like, what?
SPEAKER_01You know, so to me, that was kind of cool. Immediately after, okay, so the house is burnt. So the structure is damaged. So it sat empty from 1834 to around 1837. I can only imagine that people walking by, they're like, ooh, that's that place where those bad things happened to those people, right? So I could also imagine that nobody really wanted to touch it, you know, uh just because of the all the things that go along with it, you know, the bad history. You know, it's associated with a very horrible, very violent act happening in this house. You know, who wants to be a part of that? So eventually the property does get rebuilt. The majority of the structure was completely burned. But some of the outside the facade, that's the majority of what is original, can be seen. So in the mid to late 1800s, some different things. So at one point, here's the other thing. There's the very tragic story, but you do like to see some sort of triumph out of the tragedy, right? Yeah. You know, it's like when you see, you know, unfortunately, some tragic act happens somewhere, and like a person's murdered in this field, but then the family turns it into a park. So the house ends up becoming some really good things. Obviously, better than what it was, right? Right. So the house becomes residential apartments. The house actually gets divided into different living units.
SPEAKER_00It becomes apartments. I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that happens in the mid to late 1800s.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And then after that, it becomes a school for girls. So it becomes that, and then uh later becomes a music conservatory. And then also in the mid to late 1800s, it becomes a refuge for immigrants. Which I think that that's kind of cool, right?
SPEAKER_00That is cool.
SPEAKER_01So for a period of time, it housed a bunch of uh Italian immigrants. So in the early 1900s, now it becomes basically a retail space. It becomes a like a business. So, you know, furniture store, bar, things like that. Wow. During the 20th century, it falls to poor condition, you know, parts of it's neglected. Yeah. Then after that, it gets built into private ownership. But uh one of the things that happens is like around this time is when people really start talking about all this place is super haunted and everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It gets renovated, it becomes a private residence.
SPEAKER_00It's constructed back into one, a single family. Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yes, a very massive single family. Massive single family. And now it's a single family home. Right. Okay. Never actually got converted to a museum or attraction. So that was on the second tour that we went on. Because at the time, I don't remember them explicitly saying that it was a private residence. But on that second tour, they said that this is a private residence and they don't allow people in. I'm like, oh, 20 bucks a pop, you know, and just like, okay, walk around. Here's the attic, here's upstairs. Yeah, I'll give you 50 bucks just right. I'm not going to touch anything. Just let me walk. I just want to walk. Just go look at it. Right. Yeah. But you can go on Zillow or, you know, choose your favorite website. And there are pictures of the interior. It's kind of cool looking. So in 2007, Nicholas Cage actually buys it. He buys it for 3.45 million, which actually it's not a bad deal. So he bought it as an investment property. And if you follow Nick Cage's career, he didn't exactly make some of the best business deals. He ended up losing it. He had financial difficulties. So the house goes into foreclosure in 2009. So, anyways, foreclosed on, but then in uh 2010, now this guy, Michael Whalen, from what I understand, he is a Houston business guy.
SPEAKER_00I think he's an oil guy. Okay.
SPEAKER_01He really gets the steal in 2010. As we all probably recall, those of us that are old enough to recall, this was not a great time economically. Right. 2010. Yeah, 2010, not a great economic time. So in 2010, he buys it for $2.1 million.
SPEAKER_00I don't think about that. Geez. So Nicolas Cage did not get a penny back.
SPEAKER_01No, he did not. Whalen goes in and he spends a lot of money. He wants to restore it. He wants to make it period correct.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And he does a very good job of making it look really nice on the inside. So, but today, yeah, still privately owned. The most recent sell, it was listed for 10.3 million dollars. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So Whalen bought it for 2.1.1 in 2010.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He holds it for 14 years later. He listed it for 10.3. He doesn't get that, but the best estimate I could find was about 4.3 million.
SPEAKER_00We don't know who lives there. I wouldn't want to disclose that. I wouldn't have to do that.
SPEAKER_01And I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to live there. Ugh. So, but I mean, again, there were so many ungodly things that happened at this house. Right. But it is nice to know that at some point in time the house actually did serve a good purpose. Again, it's supposed to be one of the most haunted places in uh New Orleans. But there's always the, oh, you can hear screams. Like, it's the French quarter. You can hear screams on a Tuesday at four o'clock in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_00I mean, so you saw it too, but American Horror Story. Oh my god. Coven. Yes.
SPEAKER_01First of all, how amazing was Kathy Bates?
SPEAKER_00Kathy Bates was amazing, and she plays Delphine. They took it to, of course, it's American Horror Story. Like you're just creeped out. So in the beginning, they go back in time where she's having a social event. And it looks like the daughter made a pass at one of the slaves. Oh, okay. Yeah, right, right. Instead, so Kathy Bates took him to punish him. Right. Even though he said, I did not do anything. And she takes him upstairs, chains him up, and turns him into a minotaur. Just creeped me out, cuts off a bullhead, and I mean it just went way over the top. Right. But another thing, when the American Horror Story plot is actually back in the 1830s, is they do the blood on the face. And so you talked about the hairbrush with the young girl Leah. So it's very Elizabeth Bathory.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00So it's just like I think they combined her a little bit because from what I could find, there's nothing saying that she put blood on her face. Right. But the hairbrush is exactly how Elizabeth Bathory got convinced the blood was the uh fountain of youth for her, right? So anyway, they go to current time, right? And it's the coven. They're in New Orleans, the house, someone puts together a school for witches, and there are all these girls, and it's sort of like a finishing school for witches, right? And it's in New Orleans. They go by, and one of the witches, she's able to communicate with the other world and you know, things like that. So she sees the tour happening and takes the tour and goes into the courtyard where they found all the bodies. Right. You know, she's like the ghost, and she's like, No, I can hear Delphine. Right. And points to the courtyard ground. So it turns out they go back and they talk about Marie Laveau, the man that Delphine turned into the minotaur, was her lover, was Marie Laveau's lover. So she went in and under a false pretense, said, Oh, I have this potion that'll make you younger. I heard you're trying to get younger. And she gives Delphine this potion, which she drinks. And she does this obviously as revenge for what she's done to her partner. The potion makes her. Live forever. Yeah. And she hangs her three daughters, because in the show she has three daughters. They don't talk about a son or anything. And makes her watch and then buries her alive in the courtyard. And so when the show happens in what 2015, 2018, or something like that, they dig her up.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And she's still alive. And she's been buried that whole time. And then the head witch makes her be a servant at the coven, and she has to wait on a black witch. Yep. So that is uh you like that part of it.
SPEAKER_01Poetic justice.
SPEAKER_00Poetic justice.
SPEAKER_01Right, right.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, there's a lot, lot more. But I just thought I love how they tied in Marie Laveau. I love how they did a little bit of Elizabeth Battery. And then, of course, Kathy Bates is just she's an Academy Award-winning actress.
SPEAKER_01I love the show, don't get me wrong, but it definitely felt like they were pulling from multiple sources. Right. Let's make this even more grotesque and gruesome. Again, if you go look at the history, well, the lore of it, it even gets worse. Yeah. Some of the accounts of the tragedy that happened up in that attic.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's terrible. You know, there's other stuff, obviously. There's a book that is called Fever Season, and it's by Barbara Hamley, and it's fictionalized uh story of a free black man in the South. It's the second book in a series. So it's like the Jack Ryans or whatever, you know. And so he deals with her in this book. And so it's supposed to be pretty good. I I have it on my two-read list. Nice. So I'm gonna jump into the astrology part. Normally I just touch on the basics. Do you know anything about astrology?
SPEAKER_01Not really.
SPEAKER_00Astrology is extremely complicated if you really, really get into it. So you know what your sign is, and you know, like I'm a Leo. You're a Leo, yes. I always usually touch on only the basics. This one I'm gonna do a little differently because I feel like she's complex and cruel and she deserves a little bit of a deeper dive on. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01She's alive, so please do.
SPEAKER_00So she's born March 19th, 1787. Her son's in Pisces. We're gonna talk about something called degrees. She's a late degree Pisces. And we're gonna talk about how that plays and can look completely normal on the outside and be something very different underneath. Her son is in Pisces as a late degree. What does that mean, right? Each zodiac is made up of 30 degrees. Think of it like moving through the stages of that sign's energy. Okay. So when you're at a late degree, around 27, 28, 29 degrees, you're at the very end of that sign. Astrologers see this as kind of an intensified energy. So it's fully developed, sometimes even pushed to an extreme. It could look like mastery or like distortion. Now, Pisces on their own of the general is an emotional, intuitive, compassionate type of sign. They're the oldest in the zodiac. But a dark side is illusion, escapism, and denial. It can get really blurry. Someone can rewrite their own narrative, justify what they're doing and completely disconnect from what's real. Like she definitely disconnected.
SPEAKER_01I think you were just describing her perfectly.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so let's go a step further and talk about houses. Now, in astrology, houses represent where things show up in your life. So if you look at an astrology wheel, it's a circle and you've got these pie-shaped things. And those are your houses. Okay. Each one rules a different part of your life, relationships, career, identity, and importantly here, your social world and how you exist in society. Right. And for Delphine, we're looking at a strong Aquarius influence in the social house space.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00The 11th house energy. Aquarius is interesting, but it's social and not emotional. They know how to be around people, how to function in groups, understand the system. They can disconnect. And so what does that look like? It's someone who can smile in public, host gatherings, move through high society with ease, right? And still remain detached underneath. Now another layer is the moon sign, your internal thoughts. It was in Capricorn. Capricorn moons are controlled, composed. They don't process emotion openly, they manage it. So combining all this, we have late degree Pisces Sun was so heavy on distortion, illusion, and escapism. The Aquarius influence in social situations with detachment, and the Capricorn moon, which is very much a control, protect what's mine, and can shut down. So then we add one more piece the Mars, what your action is, your aggression, and it's in Aries. And it's impulsive, it's aggressive, it doesn't hesitate. So while everything else is masking, managing, and detaching, Aries is where the behavior actually comes in. So when you put all of it together, you get someone that can disconnect from reality, doesn't emotionally process what they're doing, understands exactly how to behave in public, and still has the capacity to act in aggressive, harmful ways. And Delphine LaLaurie didn't stand out in society. She blended it in, blended into it. And because Pisces blurred the truth, Aquarius played the role, Capricorn kept it controlled, and Aries made sure the darkness became action.
SPEAKER_01That is like spot on. I mean, that honestly, that sounds like everything that I read, you know? Because like you said, you know, blending in, you know that you've done all these ungodly things to these people. Right. But by the way, I throw in a big old party over at the house, but they'll come on over.
SPEAKER_00She can sleep at night just fine.
SPEAKER_01Right, right, right. And I have no issues having this big lavish dinner party and having all my friends over.
SPEAKER_00Right. And these people came to the house and there are people chained up in the attic. Correct. And they don't even know. Right. Yep. That's crazy. Well, this was great. I think we have an excellent episode here. Yeah. There's so much with her that's interesting. Just not just her bad behavior and what she did, but the house.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And then the fact that she just got to live out her days in Paris. Oh, yeah. That is unbelievable. Oh yeah. No justice. And she lived fairly old for that time period.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. She got to go and live out the remainder of her days and just no consequences whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00With all her money, she's probably just socializing it up in Paris.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's like, well, man, there's so many times where you're like, you just want to see a little bit of justice happen in the world. Right. And you know, but if it's the commoner, you'll see it. In their time, unfortunately, the enslaved people, they saw way too much injustice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But for the people that did all the bad things, nothing happens. But again, here we are modern day, and it's the exact same thing. Different set of circumstances, but the end result always ends up being the same.
SPEAKER_00And I love how you pointed out, which we all know, but it's like it's okay to own someone, but then there's a fine line. Correct. It's okay to marry off your 13-year-old daughter, but it wouldn't be okay for someone to abuse that 13-year-old, even as a spouse. Fine lines.
SPEAKER_01Think about like today, you know, didn't we not have somebody say, Oh, well, what is the age of consent?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, it's a great song by New Order, but you know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, if you have to ask that question, then I've got a whole bunch of questions for you. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Why are you even thinking about it?
SPEAKER_01Let me look at your browser history, sir, because that is not okay. Yeah, thanks for coming. Thank you. I've been looking forward to this. Yeah. I said it as I walked in. I felt like I've been studying for like an English midterm. I'm like, oh my goodness, this has been great.
SPEAKER_00And pick another lady if you ever want to come back. So Brian is in my husband, Greg's band.
SPEAKER_01Rooftop boxer.
SPEAKER_00Yes, rooftop boxer. And they are all in the same scene. He knows Tracy from Treacy and the Phantom Pucks, who did Eileen Warhost.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic episode. It was a good episode. Y'all did a great job with that one.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Obviously, he knows Marcia and Chad's in your band. Right. And Marsha, Chad, and Greg did the music for the podcast. So I want to do an episode where more of you guys together would be able to do that. Yeah, let's do like maybe we do a big group Zoom. That'd be for some kind of episode.
SPEAKER_01And I gotta say, I know everybody comes on and say, I absolutely love the intro theme song. Yes. It is the biggest earworm. It is I'll be walking down the hall at work and I'm just like, I'm not even gonna try single uh mic, but like I'll walk down the hall and I've got it stuck in my head all day. I'm like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, it is an earworm.
SPEAKER_01They definitely killed it with it in the best of ways, though.
SPEAKER_00They killed it in the best of ways. Yes. Thanks, Brian. Thank you. And as always, I will link things in the description that we talked about.
SPEAKER_01Go check out the house. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Bye. Bye. The Femme Fatal. Created and hosted by Stacy Dodson. Produced by Mark Williams. Music by Marcia Yingling, Chad Chank, and Greg Loicano.