The Femme Fatal
True Crime - Femme Fatale Style
The Femme Fatal tells the stories of women who commit crimes, blending true crime, pop culture, and astrology to explore power, obsession, and the darker side of femininity.
The Femme Fatal
False Friend: Pam Hupp
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She looked like the perfect friend. Helpful. Caring. The kind of person you'd trust with your secrets or your life.
This week on The Femme Fatal, we're diving into the shocking case of Pam Hupp, the Missouri woman whose web of lies, greed, and manipulation left multiple lives destroyed. What began with the murder of Betsy Faria eventually unraveled into one of the most unbelievable true crime stories in recent history, complete with a staged home invasion, a bizarre police interrogation, and enough twists to make investigators question everything they thought they knew.
Finally, we examine Pam's Libra sun, Virgo moon, and 10/10 birthday through an astrological lens.
The Thing About Pam - TV Mini Series
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Welcome to the Femme Fatal, a true crime podcast with an astrology twist. I'm your host, Stacy Dotson. Each week I'll be joined by a guest host because this femme fatal prefers not to work alone. Hey guys, welcome back to the Femme Fatal. And today I'm being joined by a good friend of mine, Stephanie. You may remember her from the Kristen Rosam episode. Hi, Stephanie. Hey! Good morning. How are you? Good morning. I'm good. You know, I had a thought the other day. I remembered in high school one time you had a Dotson, that little blue car. What was it?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, my 280Z? Yes, it was so cute. With the non-working speedometers.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So you get to my house and you're like, I have a flat tire. And so my dad comes outside and looks at your car and he had run over a T-bone steak bone. Do you remember that? It's like, what dog is sad they don't have that bone right now?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, I can't believe I remember that. Yes.
SPEAKER_02It just came to me. So funny.
SPEAKER_00I do remember that. Your dad was so nice. Because I was just like, I don't know what to do. And that was driving over a nail, yes. A T-bone steak bone, not so much.
SPEAKER_02So digress, but today we're gonna talk about Pam Hup.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Pam Hupp. What made you want to tell this story?
SPEAKER_00Well, the story itself, there's a book that Russ Faria's defense attorney had written. And I read the book, so I was familiar with the story. Bone Deep was the book. But right around that time, and I kind of started getting into podcasts more. The thing about Pam came out. And so I listened to it and I thought, this is nuts. Like this is crazy. And then when the show came out, I was just like hooked. Like, this is awesome. Renee Zellweger playing the thing about Pam. Then Keith Morrison doing it as a podcast. The show just put a cherry on top of the story.
SPEAKER_01It did. Elevated it, yes. Okay, well, let's get into it.
SPEAKER_00All righty. So Pam Hupp was born on October 10th, 1958, in and around the St. Louis area. She lived in like suburbs outside of it. I want to say her dad was an electrician or something like that, but mom was a school teacher, and I believe at some of the schools where Pam was a student. So she got pregnant her senior year of high school and found out like maybe three or four months before graduation. So she graduated high school with her father of her baby, and then they got married like right after graduation. And then that marriage didn't last very long. They did have a child together. Her name was Sarah. They were married for about six years.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's pretty long, though, considering you're not serious, you know, at that young age.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't like, oh, within the first year they were divorced. But very shortly after her divorce, she married Markub. He was a former minor league baseball player, and he kind of worked as a carpenter. He did some odd jobs, and they had a son named Travis. They moved to Florida. She brought her daughter from her other marriage, and that's when Pam started getting into the insurance company business. And so she worked there at different insurance companies, but she was fired several times for forging checks. They never pursued any type of criminal charge against her, to my knowledge, but she was fired. And not just one, like there's several.
SPEAKER_02Signs were always there.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So after that, she decided that she wanted to go back to Missouri. And so Pam Hup and Mark Hup and Travis and Sarah packed up and went back to Missouri. And that's when Pam and her husband opened up a company that flips houses. The company was called H2 Partners. I guess Hup2. Two hubs. Hup2 it. I don't know. Two hubs make a partnership. Yes. So they started flipping houses, but Pam also took a job in a state farm insurance office. And that is where she met Betsy. Betsy worked there as well. One of the things I wanted to point out, too, with the Betsy Pam relationship, there was a bit of a power dynamic. Pam is older than Betsy by 11 or 12 years.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know there was that much difference.
SPEAKER_00Quite a difference. And that tells me there was a certain power dynamic. Working in education, it really doesn't matter. I mean, if you're 24, 34, 44, there's really no power dynamic. Never really saw anyone using their age to say, like, oh, I know more about teaching than you do. You know, but in this particular situation, in a small insurance office, I do think there was a power dynamic that allowed Pam to have influence over Betsy. I think that Betsy was easily influenced by Pam, especially because Pam was such a powerful presence. Like you didn't really want to do anything to upset Pam at work or as her neighbor. Pam claims that while she was working at that insurance office, she was hit by a filing cabinet. Um, her story changes a little bit. One story has she's saying that she tripped over a box and hit the filing cabinet. Another story she tells is that the filing cabinet, they were trying to move the filing cabinet, but it fell on her. It's scammy. Okay, so then she goes on disability, self-diagnoses herself with a traumatic brain injury.
SPEAKER_02Oh, self-diagnose, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would be amazed if she really had a traumatic brain injury because I have worked with people who have that, and they're not quite as clever. At this point, she's continuing to flip houses, but she's on disability, not really working. She and Betsy kind of lost touch, but they became close when Betsy was diagnosed as having breast cancer. So I would say around 2010, 2011, their friendship grew stronger once Betsy was diagnosed with cancer. That is a conniving way to have Pam worm her way into her life.
SPEAKER_02Very much so.
SPEAKER_00One of the things that Pam Hup got Betsy to do, I just don't think this was Betsy's idea. I think this was Pam's idea, was they collected donations around town for another local family that was affected by cancer. The family said that they did not know this was happening later on, but the two of them were able to collect $10,000 with this fundraiser, and they did not give it to the family. So I just don't see Betsy sitting around coming up with this idea.
SPEAKER_02Especially since she had cancer. So she had empathy towards them, or she could empathize.
SPEAKER_00Pam used that to work her way into this. Around this time, 2011, like soon after that fundraising scam, Pam was able to talk Betsy into signing over her life insurance to Pam and remove her husband Russ from the policy. So again, there's some coercive control happening here. Right. Because why would you do that? I think she influenced her and said, you know, I'm gonna keep it for your girls. Russ, what if he spends it all and the girls don't have anything? I mean, I'm just spitballing here, but for whatever reason, and the stories lean heavily in that direction, that it was Pam's idea and she was worried about Betsy's kids. Because at this point, Betsy has stage four cancer, like it's terminal, it's spread. There's, you know, really no going back. So when Betsy passed away by not natural means, Pam was able to collect on that life insurance policy, and she did. So now we'll get to the crime. How much was the life insurance? Did you say that already? Oh, 150,000, which is not a huge life insurance policy, but it is $150,000 that Pam did not deserve to have. Yes. But she's always looking like, what's my next con? What's my next scam? And then that was it. Right. Why she didn't wait until Betsy died of natural causes, I do not know. I guess she needed the money right away. Yeah. There's differing stories about how much she and her husband were in debt, and like maybe the house flipping business wasn't going very well, but she needed the money. So December 27th, 2011, Betsy had a chemo treatment, some sort of cancer treatment. And she was driven there. Pam tried to drive her to her appointment. She really just inserted herself into Betsy's treatment. So it was like, okay, I will take you there. Here's a lollipop like, see how nice I am, because I know it makes you sick. And then I'm gonna come pick you up, and I'm gonna drop you off at your mom's, and then I'm gonna come pick you up, and you know, that sort of thing. Betsy's daughters were living with their grandmother, Betsy's mom. There's differing stories about that, different reasons for that. Some of the reasons were, oh, the girls didn't get along with Russ. But as a former educator, I can tell you the story that I believe is the girls were living with grandmother because the schools by grandmother's house were better. So Russ was their stepfather. Russ was their stepfather. But when Betsy and Russ got married, I'm not sure of the whole background of that. The girls were young. So he was really the only dad they knew. But as far as why they were living with grandmother, I don't think there was anything nefarious. I think the schools were better. Right. That makes sense. So she goes to the treatment. Russ is going to have game night with his friends. This is December 27th, 2011. So you've got Russ in another nearby town. You've got Betsy with her mom and daughters in a mom's place, which is a different town. And then Betsy lives in Troy with Russ. So Betsy was just going to stay at her mom's, play Mahjong, play whatever they did. I really think they were playing Mahjong in the show, just saying. But because it was Christmas time, there was a cousin or somebody visiting from Texas. And I believe this lady had a very strong personality, too. This is just me kind of seeing how this is spitballing. Pam was not a fan of this cousin. Oh, she thinks she's all that. Tell us some more about your barbecue because you're from Texas, you know, that sort of thing. We do have an amazing barbecue. Yeah, we do have amazing barbecue, but it was just kind of like, you know, this is just like a person who's visiting at Christmas. So she wants to spend time with Betsy and she's like, I'll take her to her appointments. Pam is not a fan of this person. Because she's that you're ruining it for me. Pam really, I think, starts getting more demanding. Like, Betsy, no, I'm gonna take you home. So on this particular day, December 27th, she insists that she is going to drive Betsy back, even though the cousin is available. There's some other people visiting. No, she said she was gonna do it. So she does. She goes over there and I will say coerces Betsy to get in the car so they can go home. Like we're on a time crunch.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Why are we on a time crunch? And so finally Betsy's like, yeah, you know, I'm tired. But there you you have that control factor. Like if Betsy didn't have Pam there, she could have just played her game. Her husband could have picked her up after his game night, and they would have gone home the end. No, Pam had to do it. Like, come on, we gotta go, we gotta go. So she drives Betsy back to the house in Troy where Betsy and Russ live, and nobody's home. What happens next is Pam goes into the house with Betsy and kills her. She stabbed 55 times. 55? 55 times she is stabbed. And in the interim, she's becoming depressed. She had been depressed over the past few months because of her cancer. And she was worried about her girls and you know how that was gonna go. And she had a lot on her mind, but she had mentioned suicidal thoughts to rest. She had mentioned that a couple of times, and he's like, Don't do that, you know, just be strong. But Betsy was suicidal. But Pam goes in and stabs her 55 times and leaves the knife in her neck. Betsy's on her side, but she's got slits going all the way up her arms, and then everything else is just stabbing. So she's kind of on her side. Now, mind you, the knife is sticking out of her neck on that side, but it's just a bloody mess. So then Pam gets back in her car and leaves. Meanwhile, Russ, I love Russ. Russ is cool. He has weekly game nights with his friends. Okay, I think it's like Tuesday nights, and Pam knows this. Betsy knows everybody knows this, but they sit around and play like Dungeons and Dragons or Awesome. Something like that. And then if they're not into DD or if somebody's missing from the party, because you have to have so many people, like I don't know, I've never played it. So that particular night, one of the game players couldn't make it, so they ended up watching a movie. They had like certain ones. I believe they picked Conan the Barbarian. Not gonna lie, there was substance use, uh, a lot of pot smoking going on, some drinking. It was just like that's what they did on Tuesdays, you know? Yeah, that's right. So he leaves out of there around nine. He's not really paying that close attention to the time, but he he's pretty sure it's nine o'clock because Betsy has texted him to say, you don't have to pick me up. Pam's gonna do it. That was like earlier in the evening, around six. So he's thinking, okay, well, I've been smoking a little bit. I think I'm gonna swing by Arby's, a little bit of the munchies. And so he goes to Arby's and places an order and like eats it in the car and just like drops the receipt on the floor of his truck, and that's the end of that. Yeah. But then he goes home and he walks in and finds Betsy. And his response is over the top wild. Yeah. There's no right or wrong way to discover a loved one dead that way. Nobody knows how they're gonna react.
SPEAKER_02You don't know how you'd react, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And I don't really put a lot of emphasis on somebody's reaction to that because some people are just stoned, cold, not knowing what to do. Some people are hysterical, and he kind of went through all of those. He might have been stoned too. He was a little stoned. But he calls 911, he doesn't really approach her very closely because the blood doesn't bear that out. Like there's not a bunch of his footsteps around there, but he's looking at her and he sees the cuts on her arms and thinks she's done it, she's committed suicide. So when he calls 911, he's like over the top, just screaming and why did you do this? And my wife just committed suicide and all of these things, and this is awful. And oh my God. And then he would like, they'd talk to him, and then he'd start screaming again, you know, because it would like hit him. It was just a really very difficult phone call to listen to. I think you can find it, clips of it online. I wouldn't recommend it. But because of his like over-the-top reaction, the police are immediately suspicious of him. Yes, of course. And he's the husband.
SPEAKER_02Right. You always look to the husband first or the spouse.
SPEAKER_00They're all amazed at his 911 call and his behavior when the police arrive. So they take him downtown in for questioning, just an interview, you know, like this is a crime scene, so you've got to get out of the house. And he's like wailing in the front yard, really upset, maybe high. So the police bring him down to the police station and interview him. They don't read him his rights at first, and he is talking and crying. And, you know, he came in and found her. He was at his game night, and how did this happen? And they keep saying, like, there's all the evidence is pointing at you, Russ. And he says, No, no, like what the police just kind of gripped onto was the fact that he called it a suicide and that possibly in his 911 call, he could have been acting. He does not know that she has been murdered. It kind of comes out at the police interview that she had a knife in her neck and he's like, What? No. And it even sounds rehearsed, but he is shocked that she's been murdered. You know, so they start interviewing. He sits there. He sits there as long as he can for like maybe a 48-hour hold. At one point, I think the detectives realize that they didn't read him as rights. So they read him as rights. And then he says, Well, like, do you think I need a lawyer? Like, I shouldn't need a lawyer. Do I need a lawyer? Why would I? Well, you know, as long as you're telling the truth, you don't need a lawyer, you know, that kind of stuff. And you're just like, oh, small town fun.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So he just is there being questioned, and they're about to have to let him go because he's not confessing. So I want to say they may have let him go until like he was formally arrested. I'm not quite sure. Right. So the police are doing their investigation. They see this horrible crime scene. They do a search of the house, they check all of the faucets, they check the bathtub for water, the sink. I want to say they maybe found a knife that matched that knife in her neck in the kitchen. The only knife that was bloody was like in her. The drains are dry. There's no nothing showing that anybody cleaned up in any of the areas of the house. In Russ's closet, there's a pair of slippers that has like some of the blood spots on it, like a blood smear. And then by one of the light switches to their room, to their bedroom, there's some blood on there. All of that turns out to be Betsy's. So, you know, the police are asking Russ, like, who was the last person to see her? Well, her friend Pam. Well, do you think Pam could have been involved? Oh no, Pam's great. She's the best. You know, she helps out. There's no way. No, no. So he's defending her and at the same time, like digging his own hole, you know. But he's just like, no, she didn't do this. When Pam finds out, she finds out like through a friend, and she's trying to get going because now, you know, she's got to get all of her story together and all that. So she is interviewed by the police, and she says that she dropped Betsy off. There's a lot of victim blaming in Pam's statements, which you do see when people are killers. Things like, I wanted to go home because it was late, but Betsy just insisted that we watch a movie. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. In some stories, she says she does not go into the house. And in other stories she gives, she said that she did. Also, she really can't answer questions just yes or no. Did you go into the house? Well, ordinarily I would probably not have gone in, so probably not. Like that's not an answer. It's a very simple answer. Either you went in or you didn't go in. But she went in. I mean, clearly.
SPEAKER_01Obviously.
SPEAKER_00You know, Russ is still trying to deal with this. The police do come and they question Pam because she saw her. She tells them this story. And like I said, there was some victim blaming. Like, oh, you know, I do so much for Betsy. And sometimes I can't remember things because I had that brain injury from when I hit that file cabinet at work. I just kind of forget things. And then the police and interrogation tactic is to build rapport. So they're being overly nice to Pam because that's a tactic they use. Oh wow, that was a lot of work that you did to help your friend. And she's like, yeah. I mean, she's eating that. Oh my God. Yes. Validation. Oh my gosh, yes. Look at me. And she says, yes. And you know, my mom is in the hospital. She's in a home care place because she has Alzheimer. She doesn't ever add the yes. And she's got the dementia and the Alzheimer. So I have to look after her. And they're like, wow, Pam, you're just, look at you. You're like a superwoman or something. And she's just like, oh my goodness, look at me, Chloe. So Pam had many, many reasons to want to kill Betsy. The first one would be, of course, the $150,000 insurance policy. Pam was then able to guide the investigation towards Russ. I don't know if I should say this, but Russ was not nice to Betsy. He would yell and scream, and I think she was afraid of him. And there was a game that he would play where he would put a pillow over her face. And like, this is what it's like when you die. And just all of this, and the police are just like furiously run like, are you serious? Oh my goodness, this is terrible. She's like, you know, she didn't really tell very many people about it. I think she was embarrassed, but I didn't like him. So now, oh my gosh, like he's at the station. Like, we gotta, you know, look at this. You've got more information. I mean, there I really think it was tunnel vision on Rust a thousand percent. And Pam was just right there helping. Now, one of the things that I did learn about Pam is she was not well liked by pretty much anyone. Her neighbors were not fans. In the neighborhood, lots of cars were keyed. Oh. When she was working, she keyed cars at work. Huh. She would send anonymous letters to neighbors with just like horrible accusations and really vile statements. But like everyone in the neighborhood was kind of like, I think that's Pam Huck doing it. So she was so busy with all of her scamming and all of that. But she did point the police in the direction of Russ. And from that point on, it was all about Russ, even though she had more to gain. I don't really even think Russ was aware of the insurance policy change. I bet he wasn't. So now we're getting into the trial, the arrest, the prosecution happens in 2012 and 2013. Pam Hubb does give a deposition. She put a lot of blame on her memory lapses, on her head injury. She does admit that the policy was in her name, but said that Betsy had asked her to do that because she didn't trust Russ. And Pam, being the friend that she is, you know, agreed. And of course, his daughters are wondering, like, well, where's our money? You know, that was supposed to be for us. Fun fact, they do not ever receive those funds. I didn't think so. So Russ goes on trial, and around the same time, Pam is excited about being the star witness for the prosecution, but she's also kind of dealing with her mom. Her mom is at a care home. The police question Pam a little bit more in depth than just the one interview at the house. Because once she's interviewed at the house, that's not the end of it. She does get interviewed by the police again. I think one of the reasons the police were interested in Pam Hupp was maybe to get some more information about Betsy and Russ's marriage, but also because there was a pesky little reporter that was going about town saying something doesn't feel right with this. Yeah. He's a local news reporter and his name is Chris Hayes. Chris Hayes is like, there is something, you know, he's kind of like, I'm a low-level reporter, but don't y'all think this is a little odd? Yeah. You know, no, I mean, it just seems like Russ was the one. He's like, okay, but you know, he's kind of got an airtight alibi. I want to see if Pam Hupp has something to say. When he interviews Pam Hupp the first time, I think she's like really excited to be on the news. And so she answers some of his questions, but something feels off. So Chris comes back to interview a few more times and he asks her at one point flat out, Did you kill Betsy Faria? Wow. And she's like, no. There's actually a picture in the newspaper of her hiding behind the garage door. And I'm not kidding, she's holding a big gulp. And so she is now, you know, this is terrible. I will say that I think Chris Hayes, if not for him, I'm not sure if we'd even be sitting here right now, just a local affiliate. Right. Then what happened was Dateline got a hold of it and sent a producer out. She goes out to view the trial. So of Russ. That's when it gets a little iffy. I'm going to tell you that both the judge, she was disparred at some point after this, and the prosecutor was voted out of office. So just kind of know that going into the Russ Faria trial. There's some innuendos that maybe the judge and the district attorney, her name was Leah Asky, there's some scuttle butt that maybe they were friends or something like they knew each other. I don't know if you would call that a conflict of interest in a small town. However, the judge was siding with the prosecution at all times. Pamhub was going to come testify against Russ. They were not going to allow any mention of the insurance money that Pam stood to inherit. They weren't going to talk about Pam was the last one to see her. Like none of that was allowed in. So basically, Russ could not put on a good defense. That's crazy. And any motions that were made, prosecution, yes, defense, no. I mean, they really went back and forth a lot about the insurance policy. The prosecutor's office asked Pam to please put the $150,000 in a trust for the girls because it's going to help their case. If she's got it, this is not. I mean, there, it's so crazy because you're thinking, well, why does she even have that in the first place? But what have you? So Russ is convicted. Yes. He's convicted of first-degree murder with extenuating circumstances, and he's like sentenced to life, and Pam just goes on about her way. Towards the end of the trial, there is a suspicion Pam's uh mom dies in her care home around 2013. And there's suspicion that Pam was involved. Her poor mom went out over like the third floor balcony and landed on the ground. But she had a load of ambient in her system. Her mom did. They weren't able to prove it. Dateline did a deep dive into it. They examined the balcony and said, how did she go up through the balcony? Like the spokes were missing, but the top was intact. It didn't make sense. But she's never been prosecuted for that. When Pam was interviewed getting ready for her deposition, she was asked again by the prosecutors if she had anything to do with Betsy's murder because she did stand to inherit. And she makes this really inappropriate comment that no, she doesn't need that money. Like she's got plenty of money. I've got money all around. And not that I would do it, but if I wanted to really collect a bunch of insurance, I could just kill my mom and get it that way.
SPEAKER_02Right. I heard that. We're pretty convinced she did kill her mom, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. There's just not enough proof, apparently, at this juncture, to charge her with that murder, but it's just crazy. So Russ is sitting in prison. Then we come to the murder that she was charged with. This is the hardest one for me. It involves a man with a disability. The more things that start happening, as far as like Pam not giving the girls the insurance money, Pam just acting crazy around the neighborhood, her mother's death, all of this. Russ's defense attorneys ask for a new trial and Russ receives one. And at this juncture, this is like 2014, 2015, Russ gets a new trial. Pam is not asked to testify. And all of the things that were kept out of the first trial were allowed in. Because this is the craziest part about the first trial, in my view. I mean, it's all crazy. In the first trial, when Russ was convicted, the district attorney tried to say that his Dungeon and Dragons friends were in on the conspiracy to murder his wife with him. Oh my goodness. Now, there's no evidence to show that this happened. And in fact, I would say that the fact that the judge allowed it probably is what got her disbarred. I mean, I I don't know for sure, but come on. The district attorney is saying that the other people that were at the Dungeon and Dragons game, Conan the Barbarian Fest, one of them drove to Arby's, ordered the food.
SPEAKER_02Oh, so they're setting up his alibi.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because he had stopped and bought cigarettes and Snapple on his way to the party and to get gas. And the district attorney said that's just way too many stops. It's like he's trying to build an alibi. That was his alibi. That's where he was. But that his Dungeon and Dragon friends went and purchased all of those things to kind of help him with the cover-up.
SPEAKER_02If they can slay imaginary ogres.
SPEAKER_00You know, and there's like these four or five little nice, nerdy people sitting in the audience going, What? Like, we didn't do that. And so all of the evidence is brought in in Russ's second trial, and he is acquitted. So now Pam is quite concerned. Dateline's calling her, you know. I'm telling you, that reporter, that Chris Hayes guy, just brought it to everyone's attention. And Dateline was listening. And so they're really on Pam's trail. Yeah. This is murder. This is not an insurance scam. Now we're like, did she kill Betsy? So Pam Hupp decides on her next scam, which is going to exonerate her. She's not going to be arrested. And also she gets to play the victim, which is her favorite. She gets all dressed up, puts on makeup, puts on a scarf. She goes to it could be a trailer park, a low-income housing somewhere. And she drives up to a person named Carol McAfee, who's sitting outside on her porch with her dog, and she says, Hi. She being Pam Hup says, Hi, I'm Kathy from Dateline. Do you want to make a thousand dollars? Of course, yes. She walks over, she's like, What are you talking about? Well, I'm a producer for Dateline, and we're looking for people to do like sound bites for one of our shows. You know, we're just picking random people, but we have to go now. Kathy McCathe is sort of thinking, like, well, you know, I think in some ways she was more curious as to what this lady was up to than like I'm going to make a thousand dollars. Pam tells Kathy, you can't bring your phone, you can't bring your ID, you can't bring anything with you. Carol goes into her trailer and gets her phone and a knife and gets in the car, you know. She said, So Dateline, you just go around and interview people? Yes, yes, yes. And now the girl's kind of freaked out. The doors are locked, and she's in the car with Pam, thinking this is not right. Like something about this is really, really wrong. I thought it was wrong. Now I know. So she gets her big personality out because apparently that's all that Pam understands is big personalities. That's it. So this girl goes really hard on her and says, Bring me to my house now. And she's got her like hand on the knife in the show. It shows that. But I do know that she did demand to go back to her house. Right. So then Pam is like, Well, okay, you know, that's that. And she goes, There's something wrong. She's like, You need to get out of here. And she calls 911 and says that there's a woman driving around in a dark SUV pretending to be a dateline producer. Yeah. So then I do not know how she came across this other person. And I don't like thinking about it nor talking about it, but there's a man in his 30s named Lewis Gumpenberger. And he had suffered a real traumatic brain injury in a car accident. He had physical disabilities, cognitive problems, adaptive behavior, which are skills that we all have in order to adapt to our environment. When I worked with my prior job, adaptive behavior was a big one. The biggest thing with adaptive behavior is: is this person able to be tricked?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, very much easily manipulated.
SPEAKER_00And this guy fit that bill. So she gets him to get into the truck. I don't know if she knew that he had any disabilities. I don't know. But she pretty much knew right away once he got in the car. She's trying to get him to say the soundbite for Dateline, because he wants the thousand dollars. He knows that. The soundbite is very convoluted. Like, I'm gonna do to you what Russ did to Betsy if you don't do the. I mean, it was just like this long, complex, compound sentence. Yeah. And this poor guy is just not able to do it. So she's like, okay, you know, plan B, plan B. So she brings him into her house. She has set up a piece of carpet there and is trying to get him to say the line, and he can't say it. So she goes upstairs, gets a gun, maybe Sherry had the gun, I can't remember, and calls 911 and gives the worst performance of her life in the 911 call. She calls 911. The guy's standing there, you know, he doesn't know what's going on. He knows something's wrong, but he doesn't know how to cope with this situation. And Pam starts saying, No, no, go away. You're not supposed to be here. Russ said, What? No, no, I'm going to shoot you. No, no. And then she shoots him while on the phone to 911.
SPEAKER_02Oh, so it's recorded.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Her phone call is recorded. In her mind, she was going to call 911. The guy was going to say the line perfectly. She was going to shoot an intruder, and this guy was going to take the fall for Betsy's death or Russ's death. And at any rate, it was going to exonerate Pam. Yes. Worst plan ever. But unfortunately, Louis Gumpenberger did die from his injuries. And so Pam was charged with that. She was convicted, but not before she was brought down to do an interview about Louis Gumpenberger. We kind of know the story where she for real goes into the restroom, palms a pen on the table that the officer left, asks to go to the restroom, and stabs herself in the neck and in the wrists in an attempt at suicide. She didn't succeed, but it also really didn't help her case.
SPEAKER_02Right. Like, why would you kill yourself if you weren't guilty?
SPEAKER_00And how pathological. She's so calm about it. I mean, she doesn't even make any noise. It's like, I'm okay. I mean, that's like some serious pathology there. So, of course, she's hospitalized in the book that was written by Russ's defense attorney, and he talks about that as she knew she had to buy more time, so she didn't know what else to do. She was trapped. So at least this would give her a chance to go to the hospital and figure out her next move. But they had enough to charge her in the death of Lewis Gumpenberger, and she actually took an alpha plea. What's that? Now, an alpha plea is when a suspect or someone who's been indicted can agree that the state has enough evidence to convict them, but they don't want to go through a trial and they don't want to say that they're guilty. So it's them agreeing that there's enough evidence to convict. I'm not convicted because I took an Alfred plea, but I still would receive the same amount of punishment, which is life in prison. But again, I don't have to admit to anything. So it's not pleading guilty, it's taking an Alfred plea. I don't know if this is relevant, but the West Memphis III. Oh, yeah. That's how they were able to get out of prison once it was shown that there were other suspects. There's schools of thought on the Alfred plea itself in both cases. Like one of the West Memphis boys did not want to take an Alfred plea because then he'd have to almost say that he was guilty. But if he didn't take the plea, he would die in prison. And Damian Eccles was up for the death penalty, so they agreed to take an Alfred plea. So that's what that is. And that is what Pam did. And she went into prison. There were some things that happened after, like there's a happy ending for rest, sort of. We know it was never going to be a happy ending because Betsy was sick, but he sues with his attorneys, some different government agencies, and receives a $2 million settlement. Wow. Because his civil rights were violated. And he marries Carol McAfee. They met in the courthouse when Pam was on trial and Russ and all that. Russ wants to see Pam take this Alfred plea and everybody who was involved too. So Russ met Carol McAfee in the courthouse, sitting on the bench next to him, and they start dating and they got married.
SPEAKER_02Ah. Something good came out of this horrible, horrible story.
SPEAKER_00You find love in strange places, but I I was happy to hear that because he went through so much and all of that. No surprise, Marcupp divorced Pam. You know, no surprise there. He divorced her. But in October of 2023, the prosecutors refiled the charge for Betsy's murder, and they're going to look into that with Pam as the prime suspect. It was supposed to begin Pam's trial for Betsy August 3rd, 2026. So like in a month or so. I think that they had to postpone it to 2028. Isn't it crazy how long this takes? Why? Yeah. Pam said she would like to have a judge trial for Betsy's murder. And they're looking into the mom, but again, like I, you know, I don't know. Also, I don't know what kind of evidence they have against Pam in the trial with Betsy's crime scene. Like, I don't know. But she's certainly in jail for life because she killed that poor disabled man. That's where she is now. So that is the story of Pam Hu. Any questions?
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. I mean, but I did want to say that I've served on enough juries to know that if I were falsely accused, which she isn't falsely accused, but if I was, I would pick trial by judge as well. I don't want to put my life in the hands of some of the people that I've met on jury.
SPEAKER_00I think I would have a really hard time giving a sentence to anybody. Yeah. I've been Selected for juries, but not picked. And in a criminal case, I think I would have a really hard time sentencing someone to prison. We like to put people in prison here. Oh, well, yeah, it's private. People make money on prison. And if there was any doubt, like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02It's so easy to prove reasonable doubt. That's what it is. It's like a lot of people don't say it, but like being on the jury, I'm like, okay, but you have to remember there's reasonable doubt. And this gives reasonable doubt. Now, I've never served on a big criminal trial, but like misdemeanors and things like that I've done. For some reason, I just get picked. I think I've been on 11 times. Lucky charms. No, I've tried it all, like worn a concert t-shirt or like dressed really nice, talked too much, didn't talk at all, and I still get picked.
SPEAKER_00You are hilarious. That is so funny. You have that intelligent look. And then obviously you're not a nut job. So if you're wearing a Deaf Leopard t-shirt, I think they might think that was cool. But speaking of juries and media and that sort of thing, one of the things that I found like really amazing was in 2019, this particular story was covered morning, noon, and night. It received more publicity than O.J. Simpson or John Benet Ramsey. It was everywhere.
SPEAKER_02That's another thing, too, that wasn't talked about. It's like Dateline. The guy you said, Chris, I wonder if he worked for an NBC affiliate. Because, you know, they have what they call like the beat, and they put out some of the things they're covering. And I'm certain like main NBC, like with Dateline and everything, they probably, you know, look at that for ideas and things like that.
SPEAKER_00He was NBC. And if you would like to know what he's doing now, he works for MSNBC and has a show called All In with Chris Hayes on MSNBC Monday through Friday, eight o'clock. He was just born to do this. I just fully believe it in my heart that if he hadn't pushed it, it just would have fallen away. She would have gotten away with it as she got away with so many other things. So, yeah, so this particular subject, Pam Hupp, has been in episodes of like snapped, probably forensic files, probably the new detectives, like bunches of true crime shows. But I think the Dateline episode was there and they decided Keith Morrison, who by the way is Matthew Perry's stepfather. I don't know if you know that. That's in my nose.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that sad? I know. It is, it's very sad. His stepfather.
SPEAKER_00He's a cool guy. But Dateline then thought, let's make this into a podcast. So they did, and they called it the thing about PM. So people that watched the Dateline episode or didn't watch it, everybody could listen to the podcast. That's kind of again what brought it to the forefront of people's minds because the podcast does a deep dive into all of these things and was very well attended. A lot of people listened to it. And then came the show. Yes. The thing about Pam on Peacock.
SPEAKER_02NBC really ran with it, like we were talking, but it's like after that podcast, they decided to produce that little mini-series, right? Renee Zellweger, I guess she was a big fan of the podcast and listened to it. She actually is the executive producer on it and obviously stars in it and plays Pam.
SPEAKER_00She is awesome.
SPEAKER_02She is awesome. So I wanted to talk about the transformation because she says in an interview that it was very important for her to look suburban. So I read about the transformation. She spent hours every day in prosthetics and makeup and wore facial appliances and body padding to physically disappear into the role. They said that, you know, she was almost unrecognizable as Pam, but she said that she had allergic reactions to all that makeup. So she was having like skin issues.
SPEAKER_00So her prosthetics, right? They had asked her to gain 30 pounds.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. She already did that for Bridget Jones.
SPEAKER_00Which, by the way, I find hilarious because I only wish I was Bridget Jones's size. She wasn't that big, right? So what she did was she to wear the prosthetics, she put bracelets on her wrists. She had a watch on one so that it would hide the prosthetic. And then she had always had a bracelet or something on the other wrist so that you couldn't see the lines. It's weird to think about like a dark comedy to be made out of this show, but it's like the sort of thing where you're like giggling, but then you feel bad that you're giggling. It's just that this woman was so horrible that to lighten up the mood a little bit, it made it more bearable for everyone. I did read that the daughters, Russ's stepdaughters, were very unhappy with the way the show turned out.
SPEAKER_02A lot of people criticized it and said it was dark comedy and made light of a terrible situation. I kind of found it in the middle. I'm like, yeah, you know, I watched it when it came out. I liked it though.
SPEAKER_00It's a story, in my view, of a cautionary tale of just to be careful who you trust and who has influence over you. If it sounds weird or hinky, it probably is. But the heartbreaking part is Lewis Gumpenberger's family didn't even get to really do much of anything. There was no trial. Like they were sitting in the courthouse all heartbroken. But she just took an Alfred plea and called it a day. That was the end of that. Back to the show, though, the cast was amazing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. There was Josh Dumal, Judy Greer, and then I love the actress that played Betsy. Katie Nixon. Yes. So yeah, it was a great cast.
SPEAKER_00But I thought also Glenn Fleshler, I wasn't really familiar with his work, but I thought he was amazing and he plays Russ. So he had a lot of airtime with that.
SPEAKER_02He was in the first season of True Detective, I think. He played kind of the bad guy. And the first season of True Detective was hands down the best season of True Detective.
SPEAKER_00It was the best season and very frightening. What amazes me about him and Billy Bob Thornton did this too in Sling Blade. They changed their facial muscles to look a certain way, to look more like the character. And I read that Glenn had done that. I mean, it just didn't even look like him. I thought all of the characters are really believable. I've got to hear her astrology, yes.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna dive in, but it's gonna be quick because we're running long. So we've talked about she was born October 10th, 1958. That makes her a Libra son. Obviously, before anyone panics, we say astrology doesn't make you commit crimes. There are millions of lovely Libras walking around living perfectly normal lives. But Libra is an interesting sign in the context of this case. So Libra is ruled by Venus and is associated with charm, social intelligence, and the ability to read a room. Libras are often skilled at presenting themselves in ways that make other people comfortable. And they understand appearances, and Pam seemed to understand how she wanted to be perceived. And at the best, Libras are peacemakers, and at the worst, they can become highly concerned with maintaining an image and controlling the narrative around them. What? Which she very, very much did. She had to be the controlling person. Like you said, the lady from Texas had too much gumption for her. Gumption. She wanted her out. She had too much guriot. That's right. That's a good old-fashioned word. Where's that been? Anyway, she was also born on 1010. That places her in something called Libra's second deacon. Astrologers divide each sign into three smaller sections called deacons, and each one adds a different flavor to the sign. And while all Libras share that Venus focus on relationships and social charm, the second deacon is often described as a little more controlled, a little more ambitious, and a little more strategic. The second deacon of Libra is associated with an intellectual detached quality to Libra's natural people skills. You know, detached her bad acting probably in her 911 call. And then there's the number itself. 10 is associated with completion, power, and cycles beginning again. And a birthdate of 1010 gives us that repeated energy. Whether you believe in numerology or not, there's something striking about those mirrored numbers attached to someone who spent years reinventing herself depending on who was asking the questions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She told different stories to everybody.
SPEAKER_00And if she couldn't remember, she blamed on that head injury.
SPEAKER_02She set herself up for any kind of excuse by faking that injury. So let's talk about her moon sign, which is in Virgo. And the moon governs your emotions, your instincts, and what's happening beneath your surface. In healthy expressions, that can make someone incredibly dependable. But in more difficult, if you will, expressions, Virgo energy can become hypercritical, controlling, and intensely focused on managing outcomes. And Virgo is ruled by Mercury, the planet of communication and information. And there's something unsettling about pairing that detail-oriented moon with the Libra sun that already knows how to charm and persuade. One manages relationships, the other manages details. And in the darkest interpretations, those energies together can create someone who is extremely good at maintaining appearances while quietly organizing everything behind the scenes. Astrology's not destiny, but I think a Libra with the Virgo moon is a good dateline special.
SPEAKER_00This is a very intense personality. More intense than, you know, a lot of stories that I follow just because she did have to be in control. Like that was her thing. And if anybody was going to out-control her, she would like distance herself from that. But, you know, she's where she belongs. And whether or not she gets charged, you know, with Betsy's death, or convicted rather, or her mother, she killed that man. She's where she needs to be. And I hope she's having a rough time of it. But this was great. So I will be on the hunt for my next bad girl. Bad girl. My next person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's been fun. Thank you for joining me again.
SPEAKER_00Yes, thanks so much. Thanks for having me, and I had a good time.
SPEAKER_02Bye. The Femme Fatal. Created and hosted by Stacy Dodson. Produced by Mark Williams. Music by Marcia Yingling, Chad Schenk, and Greg Loicano.