The Femme Fatal
True Crime - Femme Fatale Style
The Femme Fatal tells the stories of women who commit crimes, blending true crime, pop culture, and astrology to explore power, obsession, and the darker side of femininity.
The Femme Fatal
Devoted Disciple: Leslie Van Houton
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In this episode of The Femme Fatal, we take a closer look at Leslie Van Houten, the youngest woman convicted in connection with the Manson Family murders.
At just 19 years old, Van Houten participated in the brutal murders of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca in August 1969, crimes that would forever tie her name to Charles Manson and one of the darkest chapters in American true crime. We trace her life before Manson, how she became part of his inner circle, her role in the LaBianca murders, the trials that followed, and the decades she spent behind bars before being paroled in 2023.
In pop culture, we look at how the Manson women have been portrayed on screen, including *Charlie Says*, and the strange cultural mythology that continues to surround the summer of 1969.
Then in Horoscopes & Homicides, we examine Leslie’s birth chart, including her planetary placements and lunar nodes, and what they reveal through an astrological lens about identity, influence, relationships, and the path she ultimately had to reckon with.
A story of murder, manipulation, accountability, and what happens when a 19-year-old gives herself completely to someone else’s reality.
Movies, parenting and life's absurdities. Jason and his AI cohost Heather take sides.
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Welcome to the Femme Fatal, a true crime podcast with an astrology twist. I'm your host, Stacey Dotson. Each week I'll be joined by a guest host because this femme fatal prefers not to work alone. Hey everybody, welcome back to the femme fatal. I've been on hiatus for a few weeks, but I'm happy to be back and to be joined by my good friend Stephanie. And uh Stephanie today is going to talk about Leslie Van Houten. Stephanie, what made you want to talk about her?
SPEAKER_01One of the first true crime books I ever read was Helter Skelter. And I was into true crime, I guess, before it was a thing. The thing about Leslie Van Houten that was meaningful to me was that, you know, she was 19 when all of this went down. And she's the only one in the Tate La and Bianca murders who was paroled after many, many, many tries. And so I just kind of wanted to see, you know, talk about her and see what set her apart to where she was getting paroled and nobody else was. So she was born at Altadena, California, and had a regular upbringing, you know, middle class, upper middle class, even. They make a big deal about in all the movies and shows. Oh, she sang in the church choir. She was a homecoming princess. She was all of these things. And then when she was 14 years old, her parents divorced. And that was very difficult for her. So she kind of started using marijuana, LSD, MDMA, you know, things like that. And she then became pregnant at 17. So she was struggling, you know, with the divorce, and then she ended up getting pregnant. Well, her mother forced her to have an abortion, and it was a home abortion. Oh no. So she had to bury the fetus in the backyard. Wow. And then at that point she just kind of dropped out of society, school, society. She went to some other communes when she was like 18, 17, 18. And then she also, I will have to say, was one of the more attractive girls in the Manson family. So in her wanderings, she met Bobby Bosale, who actually was affiliated with the Manson family, and they started dating. And that's how she met Manson. They were just kind of living, I want to say at that time at Spawn Ranch, but there were different houses that they lived in. So she just kind of followed along. I guess when the family really settled down, it was at Spawn Ranch, Spawn Movie Ranch. Bobby Beausoley was like one of the more attractive males in the Manson family. And Charlie was really into Bobby Beausoley because he could bring in a lot of girls to the family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. He recruits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you know, he was a recruiter. She was really into LSD, as was most of the family. And by the age of 19, she had taken LSD approximately 150 times. Oh my God. And people will say, like, oh, you know, LSD is not addictive, you know, it's just a hallucinogen. But it makes you sharper. That's what was projected in the book, Helter Skelter. And I'm thinking, I don't know. I don't know about that. I think it can damage your brain, yes. Especially that many times. 150 times. So she comes and joins the family at Spawn Ranch. And at this point, I want to kind of talk about, you know, she's getting ready to, they're just kind of living out there. You know, they go to grocery store dumpsters for food. Leslie would go along and do that. Manson tried to get them to like work in a topless bars or things like that, but I'm not sure. I think my vision of Leslie is she was just kind of sitting at the ranch and like chipping in and stuff. But Manson did get into her head. He got into her head like he got into all of his followers' heads through drugs, sex, attention, being the person she wanted to be. It's a communal family. We indoctrinate, he indoctrinated them by the use of drugs, sex, changing their names. Leslie's family name was Lulu. Interestingly enough, though, she is kind of just known by her name, Leslie Van Houten. I mean, she was called Leslie a lot at the ranch. So to get into, you know, the fact that she was manipulated by Manson did not take away her agency. You know, lots of people came and went from the family. Like she could have left if she wanted to at first. Yeah. Manson had often said that people were free to leave at any time. So if that's the case, then why were people talking about escaping? Some of the folks talked about escaping. It was just an utter mess at the ranch. I mean, just a mess. And I think, you know, Charlie liked that. Like everything's weird. Like, this is how I get you. Who owned the ranch? George Spawn. He was this elderly gentleman, probably in his 80s, uh, half blind. And Charles just kind of like scoped out the place. They had filmed movies there, commercials, like Marlboro commercials, you know, it was a movie set, like a Western movie set. He asked if he and a few of his friends could stay there and they would help him run the ranch. And George was like, sure. And so they did have, you could go horseback riding there. So they did take care of the horses and take people on horseback rides, yikes, you know, but that's what they did. Squeaky Frome, another famous or infamous family member, was assigned to George. So she prepared his meals and all his cooking, cleaning, and anything else he wanted to do. So they were at Spawn. Just to quickly review the murders. Charlie did not set out to be a murderous cult. Things got out of hand. So we have to go back to July 1st, 1969, because that is when one of the most important murders that's really largely overlooked is the murder of Gary Henman. July 1st, Gary Henman was a man who uh he was a like kind of a free spirit. He was a drug dealer, and Bobby Bosley had purchased some drugs from him and brought them back to the rant. Well, Charlie had been involved in some crimes, and so he was a little nervous and wanted extra protection. So he brought in a motorcycle gang called the Straight Satans, and they kind of hung around the ranch. They participated in the orgies. Charlie would say, like, hey, Straight Satan dude, like, have your pick of the girls. Some of them were like, no, thanks. And some of them were like, yippee, you know, and so Bobby Beausoley had purchased some drugs from Gary Hinman and gave them to the Strains. Well, they said that they got sick, and Charlie was furious because he needed that biker gang there. And so he sent Bobby back to get a refund. At that time, I want to say they went back to Gary Hinman's house. It was Bobby Beauleigh, Sadie Atkins, and a guy named Bruce Davis. Gary's like, I don't have any money. Like, I don't know what to tell you. The drugs are good. Like, what do you mean? And then Bobby Bosole called Charlie. He came over and he slashed Gary Hinman with his sword that he kept. I mean, these people are crazy. Charlie actually did that. Charlie slashed his ear, handed the sword to Bobby, and said, You know what you have to do. So they tried to heal him back to health, but he was, as it just wasn't happening. This went on for days. And then finally, Sadie Atkins and the rest of them like stabbed him and he was left there. Around the same time, speaking of drugs, Bernard Crow was a marijuana dealer, an African-American gentleman. He was a drug dealer. And Tex Watson, one of the prominent family members and murderers there with Leslie, he went to Bernard Crow to buy some weed, because that's what he did. He was a weed dealer. And Tex decided that while he was there, he was just going to go ahead and rob him, rob the drug dealer. So he took the drugs and the money. And so Manson hurries back to Bernard's house. Tex is there. He's like, hey man, you need to leave us alone. We want more drugs or just whatever. And he told Tex, this is how you be a man. And he shot Bernard Crow in the stomach, thinking that he had killed him. P.S. He hadn't killed him. He was just injured. Charlie mistakenly thought that Bernard Crow was a Black Panther, because that movement was up and running in the 60s. And actually, around that time, the Black Panthers were pretty prominent, but he erroneously believed that Bernard Crow was a Black Panther. So he shot him and they leave. Fun fact, Bernard Crow showed up at the trials, the Tate Lambianca trials, and Charlie was really surprised to see him because he thought he was a Black Panther. So this happened right before Gary Henman's murder at the murder scene. They wrote some things on the wall in blood. They wrote Political Piggy. They wrote something else. And then Bobby Beausolay made a Panther paw print on the wall. Because Charlie was hoping that would tie Gary Henman's murder to the Black Panthers, but it didn't kick in fast enough. So this is all in early July. So at the end of August, that same year, about a month later, well, I beginning of August, August 9th, about a month later, that is when the Tate LaBianca murders occur and where Leslie Van Houten comes into the picture. On the 9th, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Linda Kasabian, who testified against everyone at trial, and Patricia Krenwinkel went to the CLO Drive to the Tate house and stabbed everyone. The next evening, August 10th, is when they went out again. This time Leslie came along and Charlie came along and they went to another house that was just kind of nondescript, although it was near a party house. So Leslie recognized the area because they'd gone to a party there nearby. And Charlie and Tex went in and tied up Mr. and Mrs. Labianca, Leno, and Rosemary. And he tied them up. I didn't even know he went along.
SPEAKER_00I always thought he just ordered it from the ranch.
SPEAKER_01He did, but the second night, he said the first night was too messy. Meaning, okay, let's talk about why he picked that house for the first murder. Why the Tate House? Prior to all of this, Charlie was a musician. And I have to say, he wasn't half bad. And so he was, you know, living at the ranch. He got Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys picked up a couple girls on the side of the road and took them back to his house. They were Manson girls, he found out later. This was way prior, like certainly prior, probably to Bernard Crow and Gary Hidman. They were just kind of living at Dennis' house. The other Beach Boys were not enthralled with Charlie, and neither were the Beach Boys producers, Greg Jacobson and Terry Melcher. They were not thrilled with Manson. Manson was always trying to play music for them at Dennis' house. Dennis let Charlie use his studio to record a few songs, but nothing ever went anywhere, and he was really upset about that. And that would have been in like 1968. So, you know, this is happening. He had some songs, and one of the songs was called Cease to Exist. The Beach Boys actually recorded that song like they stole it from Charlie. So, anywho, they're living at Dennis's house. The family's going in and out, they're destroying Dennis's house, they're stealing money, he's giving them food, he took them all to get antibiotics for their illnesses.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Transmittable illnesses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the free clinic, you know. And so Charlie was pestering Terry Melcher, Greg Jacobson. He'd actually, when Terry Melcher was living at CLO Drive, he actually Charlie went to the house and like knocked on the door asking for Terry. And the owner of the house was named Rudy Altabelli. He said, Dennis is not here, Terry Melcher does not live here anymore. Like, go, go, go, go. And actually, Sharon came up behind the owner and saw Charlie. They met eye to eye. Okay. So Charlie was really upset. He was furious, Charlie was, that not only did he not get a recording contract, they stole one of his songs. Right. I'd be pissed off too. Now, mind you, it was a B-side on the LP, but still, it was his song. But still, he should get something for it. Yeah. So Charlie was furious. So when we go forward in time to the Tate Lambianca murders, the Tate House was where Terry Melcher had been living, and that was the house where Charlie went up and knocked on the door looking for him. Meanwhile, he's preaching all this Helter Skelter stuff, and the girls are like, yeah, Helter Skelter. You know, they're singing his songs. They believe the premise of uh Helter Skelter is that there was going to be a race war between black people and white people. The black people were going to win, and then the white people were going to be enslaved because it was their turn. So Charlie was trying to get that going because what was most important to him was that once the black population took over, they would need help, and Charlie was going to be just the person to do that. So that's the helter-skelter theory. Okay, that's why the paw print, that's why the words and blood written on the walls everywhere. Charlie also believed that the Beatles were speaking to him through their songs on the White Album. That's what LSD will do to you right there. I would imagine. And, you know, when he would preach about this stuff, everybody was high. So they were much more impressionable, you know. So Leslie's, you know, actively participating. She has no plans on leaving. She's going to do all this. And then I think that the Tate murders were mostly due to Terry Melcher and the Beach Boys put to scare them, to scare them. But then things really got hopping. You know, it's like, oh my gosh, people are coming back to the ranch. They're talking about it. And I can only imagine Charlie's kind of like, mm-mm-mm-mm. This is not what I had envisioned. So let's try this again the next night. So they go to the La Bianca house. Leslie is there. They stab Leno LaBianca in the living room after the two of them had returned that evening from a trip. Refresh my memory.
SPEAKER_00Who is this person and why is he
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SPEAKER_00important?
SPEAKER_01The second night, August 10th, was going to be night two of the Tate LaBianca murders, and this is the LaBianca time. Charlie took Linda
(Cont.) Devoted Disciple: Leslie Van Houton
SPEAKER_01Kasabian. She had a valid driver's license. So, I mean, he was worried about safe driving. He took himself, a crazy, unfortunate person named Steve Grogan, who had escaped from a mental institution and was living there. He took Tex Watson, he took Leslie Van Houten, and he took Patricia Krenwinkel. And so Lanson had to figure out where do I go? Like, obviously, that place was like way popular. Like everybody knows these people. So let's find another house so that everybody will think it's every man should be scared. Okay, okay. Not just Hollywood. So there was a house that was like Kitty Corner to the La Bianca's where they had attended a party at some point. And so he was sort of familiar with the neighborhood. So they pulled up to a house, had a boat out front. That was the La Bianca's house because they had just come home from a trip, so their boat was out front. So Charlie's thinking, well, heck, they have a boat. The house is big, they must have money. So they pull up. He and Tex got in the house. I don't know if the door was unlocked. I don't know how they got in, but they tied up Leno and Rosemary, his wife, LaBianca, on the couch and said, Don't worry, everything's fine. We're not going to do anything. And then they left out of there. And Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel came back in with Tex and performed the murders. So Tex and Patricia were seasoned stabbers. They'd stabbed and stabbed the night before. Leslie was new to the scene. So I imagine she wasn't as hyped about it, but you know, she said the pressure from the family, you know, had her participate. Later on in her older years, she realized, like, what was I doing? But she kind of sorta, in a way, waited for the bitter end when Rose Mary was pretty much dead. They had tied her with a cord on the bed, a lamp cord. Leslie held her down. Patricia stabbed her over and over and over again. And then Tex came in and made Leslie do some stabs. So she stabbed her in the back, in the lower back. And to be fair, Mrs. Laubayanka was likely already dead. There's really no way to tell if she was alive or not, but that did put Leslie in the position of murder.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, she held her down, so you know.
SPEAKER_01Right. She held her down. She'd already been really into acid. Like you have to really try to take it that many times. So she was following along, but she was an active participant. And then they didn't have a car because Linda Kasabian took the car. And by the way, they tried to kill some other people that night. Really? They tried to kill some other people. Charlie asked uh Linda, hey, didn't you know like a movie producer around here? And she's like, Yeah, he lives in this apartment complex. Charlie's like, let's go ahead and stab him too. And Linda pointed to the wrong apartment. And so nobody was living there, so they kind of gave up on it. They tried to shoot some people from their car. I mean, it was just like, you know what? Mayhem. Mayhem. Mayhem for sure. So then they hitchhiked Texan friends and Leslie Van Houten hitchhiked back to Spawn Ranch. What's interesting is after these murders, the family stayed at Spawn Ranch for a time, but then he moved them to Barker Ranch, which is way out in the desert. I mean, it is extremely far removed. You know, Spawn Ranch was pretty far removed. I mean, that's how you get control of your followers. You bring them together, you organize their lives, you don't let them make any decisions, you change their names, you know. But Spawn Ranch was like you could drive from Spawn Ranch to go to places in LA, San Francisco, like wherever you wanted. But Barker Ranch, you had to, I don't even know how they got their driving. It's just like rocks and, you know, boulders. And I think they tried to take a school bus there, and the school bus was like destroyed by the time they got to Barker Ranch. The family members, Leslie and Patricia, have spoken about Barker Ranch, saying that it was just a horror show. It was so far removed, they were miserable. I mean, I could go on and on about the different ranches. Almost right after the Tate La Bianca murders at Spawn Ranch, there was a raid for the stolen engines for the Dune Buggies. Charlie was so freaked out, he thought they were there because of the Tate La Bianca murders. What a relief. It's just about stolen engines and stolen car parts, you know. So they went to jail, but then they were released on a technicality. The family was raided, everything happened, and then they were all released because somebody had written the wrong date down on the ticket or something. I don't know. And this is after the murders. After the murders, Charlie was so freaked out that he moved them all to Barker Ranch. That's why. But meanwhile, Susan Atkins can't keep her mouth shut. She's over there getting arrested, you know, the spawn ranch raid. While she's waiting it out, she's just talking to all her cellmates, telling them how she, you know, is part of this family. And guess who they killed? And, you know. So she was one of the squealers. And the family really believed, I feel certain, they really believed in the helter-skelter dynamic. They really believed that this was something that they had to do in order to survive. Because once the race war happened, it was going to be all over. Charlie, on the other hand, I think he was more worried about, you know, the Black Panthers coming after them for Bernard Crowe's shooting. I think he was more concerned about drugs and drug deals gone bad. I think Helter Skelter. His stolen song? His stolen song. Imagine the rage. But Helter Skelter kind of got away from him. You know, it kind of got away from him. So eventually they were arrested. They were tried and convicted of first-degree murder. The courtroom, the the trial was just unbelievable as far as the girls, what they were doing, what Charlie was doing, what the media was doing. The prosecutor did write the book, Helter Skelter, because I think he was really convinced that that's why the murders took place. And the book really hits home with that. I personally have the Occam's razor theory, which is the simplest theory. The simplest theory is that Charlie shot Bernard Crow over to show text like You Be a Man, and also because of the stolen song and no music contract. So that's my feeling. I would say that the horror show that took place that Leslie participated in, if that doesn't warrant the death penalty, I don't know what does. And that's what the prosecutor said. Just two people left for dead. Patricia Krenrinkle during the LaBianca murders after that. She had written Helter Skelter on the refrigerator. They wrote Rise on the Wall in the Living Room where Lena LaBianca was, because that's one of the Beatles songs, Blackbird. Like Rise Up, Rise Up. And her family, her little boy, he was like 14 years old, was staying the night at a friend's house, thank goodness, or he would have been killed too. He discovered the scene. Oh my God. And called his sister and her boyfriend to come over. And he's like, What is going on? And when the sister pulled up LaBianca's daughter, she was worried because she saw the boat was in the driveway. And she liked, they always put the boat up when they come back. It doesn't matter. The boyfriend went in, took the little guy out, told his girlfriend, the daughter, don't go in. And he went in and looked at everything, closed the door, and then they called the police. But they were found out by Susan Atkins's giant mouth. I mean, if she had kept her mouth shut, they might be unsolved. Maybe. I still think with all of those people, like it would have gotten out. Yeah, who's gonna keep that kind of a secret?
SPEAKER_00Right. The first person that gets arrested on their own for something else, they're like, hey, I've got some information to trade, if you give me a lighter sentence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, just anything, after a while, I think they would have been found out. If you ask me, Leslie Van Hutten was the least culpable in all of the murders. If she had listened to her parents, because she was estranged from them, if she had any kind of her own mind, she would have realized I don't need to be tried with the rest of these people. They were there both nights. You know, it was the same kind of thing Charlie was trying to use as like to separate himself. I didn't do any stabbing. Well, you know, they did what they did. Like, I don't know. You know, Leslie could have been tried on her own and maybe had a different outcome, but they were so ingrained that they all went on trial together. She did get up on the stand during the trial and told everyone that she had done it, that Charlie had nothing to do with any of the murders. That's what a lot of the girls were saying. Wow. Later on in life, of course, she recanted. Yeah, she couldn't believe what had happened. I want to talk about her time in prison and the fact that she actually got out for a little bit. So the girls, the trial takes place. It is Leslie Van Houten, Patricia Krenwinkle, Susan Atkins, and Charles Manson. They are found guilty of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and sentenced to death. Tex Watson had gone home to Texas, you know. I think he lived in Denton, right? Which is up north. And his dad was like a sheriff or something. So they were fighting extradition, but after a while, Tex had to go back and he was tried separately and found guilty of first degree murder and given the death penalty as well. The death penalty, and the girls were living at the Frontier Institution in California that was like being built especially for death row women. And they were staying somewhere else in the meantime, Chillicothe or somewhere. They were there in prison. California did abolish the death penalty eventually, so they immediately went to life in prison, and it was not retroactive because now the death penalty is back in place. So the women are sitting in prison. In 1977, Leslie was actually granted a new trial. She was bailed out, and she made an appearance at the 1978 Oscars. She was invited.
unknownOh my god.
SPEAKER_01How did that happen? And she said, you know, because at that point had been, you know, several years, not that long, but still several years to kind of get her head together. She had said that she was sitting at the Oscars and was wondering whether or not maybe she was on acid still. You know, like, is this real? Like, am I really sitting here at the Oscars because I'm here? But she was tried again and found guilty. Well, how did she go to the Oscars? Do you know? Somebody invited her. Like a date? Yes, somebody who wishes to remain nameless. She had and has a lot of supporters just because she went to jail at 19 and kept coming up for parole. And like I said, she was involved in the murders just as much as the rest of them. But when you look at the facts, she was the least culpable. Somehow or another, somebody said, Hey, Leslie's out. Come on, we're going to the Oscars. I don't know. But it's just a weird fun fact. So she had life in prison again in uh 1978. Then the parole board seriously looked at her for parole in 2016. Now she had come up before, but was denied. But in 2016, the parole board really took a look at this and said, okay, it's 2016. It's been about 40 years. Like, really? And they granted her parole, but the governor, Jerry Brown, said, No, she's going back. So Leslie was recommended for parole 22 times over the years and was denied by governors until July 11th, 2023. And then she was paroled. So she got out like three years ago. Who was governor in 2023? Was it Newsom? Gavin Newsom. Yes, that sounds right. That absolutely sounds right. So he said, okay, like enough already. It's 2023. While Van Houten was in prison, she earned a master's degree. She was doing outreach programs. She was doing all kinds of things. And she was taking full responsibility, not only for the LaBianca murders, but for things that happened at the ranch. I mean, just telling, like, what do you want to know? Like, I'll tell you whatever you want to know. I'm not a snitch, but like of the Tate LaBianca killers, she's the only one who was granted parole. Susan Atkins died in 2009. Manson died in 2017. I think there was like a parade that day somewhere, you know.
SPEAKER_00Someone had a parade.
SPEAKER_01And Tex Watson is still in prison. He's been denied parole 18 times. He's up again this year. And Patricia Quinwinkle, she did receive her parole in May of 2025. Okay, so she's out too. Yes. So Van Houten today is living like in a halfway house, monitored house under parole supervision, and she is 77 years old. So she had quite a life. I will tell you that I cannot imagine being in prison for that long and coming out and like being sane. So that is likely why she's in the halfway house. But she doesn't, I mean, when you've been in prison that long, like what kind of health care do you get? What kind of dental care? Like she probably doesn't have much longer to go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How do you even acclimate yourself into society at that point? And I mean, she probably did some serious brain damage from all the acid she did. So I don't think she, I don't know. There's gotta be some interviews with her, right?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes. There are interviews, there's movies, there's shows about the Manson family. And, you know, Leslie's prominently featured because she was one of the killers, and also she was one of the prettier ones. I mean, I don't think you have to look great to be a murderer, but if you did, she fit the bill for that. She really fit the bill.
SPEAKER_00Coming from where she came from, she was probably more well groomed and you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. But then when you go to the abortion thing, it kind of is like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's terrible.
SPEAKER_01That's a lot. I did want to mention, too, that I know Manson was not a hippie. I promise you. He was not a hippie. He was a lifelong criminal starting from like probably like the age of eight. And what's interesting is that he was released from prison for some crime, like taking sex workers across state lines, mail fraud, a lot of federal crimes. And you almost wonder like, is he doing federal crimes to get more time because he doesn't have anywhere to go? Oh, wow. Yeah. It's mentioned in the book, Helter Skelter. And one of the things that happened was he was released from Terminal Island and then McNeil Island and didn't know where to go. So he headed down to Haight Ashbury. That's how we arrived. I mean, it wasn't like Vietnam and we're protesting. And no, he could have cared less about that. But he managed to like ingratiate, like get in there and be a part of it. But he was just a con man. And Leslie fell for it because she was nomadic, like a lot of the folks in the family, they were nomadic. And young and impressionable.
SPEAKER_00I remember being 19. I wasn't making any smart decisions, I don't think.
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, we we were sort of like avoiding our parents at all costs at that point, but we had nice parents. I mean, they were having us do things that were insane. And I don't think this is because she's a child of divorce. I mean, you know, I don't know what was going on in her head, but Manson got into her head. That's what was kind of going on.
SPEAKER_00Obviously, I always do my research when we pick a person and I do the astrology, and then I also try to look at any pop culture. And one of the films I found that I want to talk about, it was called Charlie Sets. The movie premiered in 2018 at the Venice Film Festival and was released theatrically in 2019. And what's different about this one is that it really isn't his story, right? It's much more Leslie or Lulu's story, you know, as she was known in the family. And there's a pretty recognizable cast as well. Leslie is played by Hannah Murray, who Game of Thrones fans will immediately recognize as Gilly. Yeah! Yes. And Matt Smith plays Charles Manson, and that's quite a difference between Doctor Who and Prince Philip in the Crown. Wow. Yeah. And Patricia Cronwinkle is played by Susie Bacon, who is the daughter of Kevin Bacon and Kira Sedwick.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so it was well cast. And I do I have seen it. And you know how you you watch them and you're like, oh, that person looks familiar. Okay, find the cast. But I had seen it, I guess it was probably around in 2018. So yes. But yes, please talk about it.
SPEAKER_00Merritt Weaver is another person, and you and I have talked about she was in Unbelievable on Netflix with Tony Collette. Yes, that was great. And she plays Carlene, who is a real person. So Carleen was a graduate student who began working with Leslie, Patricia, and Susan Atkins while they were incarcerated at the California Institute for Women. And that's what I found interesting about the movie is obviously you see Manson and Spawn Ranch and the murders, but the movie keeps bringing it back to these women in prison and Carlene trying to get them to, you know, think independently again and deprogram themselves. And her goal wasn't to convince them that they were innocent, it was quite the opposite. She wanted them to figure out who they had been before Charlie. And the movie was partially based on her book, The Long Prison Journey of Leslie Van Houten, Life Beyond the Cult. It's not a true story, but it's based on true things, right? Sure. And so there's a real foundation part of the story. And there's one exchange near the end that really caught my attention, especially because I mean I do the astrology section, right? So Leslie asks Carlene if she remembers how 1969 felt like there was going to be this huge cosmic shift and nothing would ever be the same. And Carlene basically, this is in the film, says, yes, a lot of people felt that way, but it didn't make them kill strangers. You know, that made me think, well, you know, something cosmic the way it felt. Let's see, let's check out the astrology at that time. So there is actually something pretty significant that happened in 1969. Jupiter and Uranus were traveling together and made an exact conjunction three times, with the final conjunction occurring on July 20th, 1969. Now, in astrology, Uranus is associated with revolution, rebellion, disruption, and breaking free from the established order. Jupiter expands whatever it touches. So put those two together, and astrologers associate that combination with major social change, liberation, and sudden breakthroughs, and a very strong urge to throw out the old rules and create something new. And if you think about 1969 culturally, that description wasn't exactly a stretch. You have Woodstock, the Moon Landing, Vietnam protests, Stonewall, and the counterculture and the sexual revolution.
SPEAKER_01And the Manson, LaBianca, and Gary Hinman.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And all the rest of the murders. And all the craziness that went along with the family.
SPEAKER_01Was that mentioned in the movie?
SPEAKER_00All this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The fact that Leslie asked her about the cosmic event, that is so cool. I'm gonna have to go back and watch that movie.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she asked her, she's like, didn't you feel like there was this change that was gonna happen? And you know, the energy. And she said, yes, right? And so when she said that some enormous shift was coming, and that part actually makes sense when you look at the astrology of it. But of course, Carlene's response is the best response. Most people didn't murder anybody.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. That's not an excuse for killing.
SPEAKER_00That's true. One thing that Charlie says does really well is it doesn't excuse Leslie, but it does ask us to look at how someone gets from being a fairly ordinary teenager girl to go and participate in something that's unimaginable, right? And it also says, like the title itself, you know, it's like he erased their identity. And what should we think Charlie says? What should we believe Charlie says? And who are we, Charlie says? And once Carleen starts working with them in prison, she's essentially trying to reverse that process and teach them how to form their own thoughts again.
SPEAKER_01Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Another interesting pop culture connection is just how many times Hollywood has told the Manson story, and you know, you've had Hildrick Skelder once upon a time in Hollywood, which I love that movie.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, I know. Yeah. Did you ever watch Mindhunter on Netflix? Only a dozen times. And I've read the book so many times that Charlie made me put it on my Kindle because he was tired of looking at it on the side of the bed. I have never read the book. I should read the book because I really John Douglas, he's the Mindhunter. He was the one that was featured in Silence of the Lambs, all of the behavioral science, all of that. Mindhunter is excellent. I was hoping for a third season, too, but I thought, well, I've read the book and I don't really know who else is gonna be. He interviewed hundreds of people, but yeah, it's a great book, great story, a great idea to figure out what drives people.
SPEAKER_00But it did end without, like, you know, you peppered BTK through the whole two seasons, right? And we didn't get to know anything about that. So that's why I feel like we got ripped off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And by the way, the BTK is actually terrifying to me.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, really terrifying.
SPEAKER_01I don't like that.
SPEAKER_00It's not that I like to help.
SPEAKER_01I don't like the Manson murders, but it is not fun to talk about him.
SPEAKER_00Ugh, so bad. Okay, so I've been calling it horoscopes and homicides. And I have exciting news for my fellow astrology nerds. We have a birth time for Leslie. So she was born August 23rd, 1949, at 5:51 in the morning in Los Angeles. And it comes from her birth record. So we can actually look at her houses and her rising sign. So basically, she is a Virgo sun, Leo moon, and Virgo rising. But her son is sitting right at zero degrees Virgo, which means she was born just as the sun entered Virgo. So there's an interesting Leo de Virgo transition happening in her chart. I think that combination is fascinating when we think about the girl Leslie apparently was before Manson. So her Leo moon needs warmth, belonging, recognition, and affection. Leo moons want to feel special, they want to know, they matter to people around them. And then you surround that moon with all this Virgo energy. Virgo can be incredibly intelligent and observant, but it can also be self-critical and it wants to improve itself, it wants to get things right. So you've got this emotional Leo saying, see me, love me, tell me I'm special, and a Virgo asking, but am I good enough? You know, that's an interesting combination in someone who eventually found herself in a group where one charismatic man was deciding who was special, who was worthy, and what everyone should believe. And then we get to Venus and Libra, and Venus as Actually rules Libra, so it's very comfortable there. And Libra Venus is extremely relationship-oriented. It wants connection, harmony, and partnership. But the shadow side can be putting too much importance on keeping that connection, avoiding conflict, or defining yourself through your relationships. And we know that inside the family, individual identity was systematically broken down. Leslie wasn't Leslie anymore. She was Lulu. And here's something that I don't normally talk about. So the lunar nodes. So quick astrology 101. The north and south nodes aren't actually planets. They're two mathematical points in the birth chart where the moon's orbit crosses the path of the sun. And astrologically, they're interpreted as kind of a growth axis. The south node represents qualities that feel familiar and easy to fall back on. Think of it as your comfort zone. And the north node sits directly opposite and represents the qualities you're being challenged to develop. Basically, the south node says, this is familiar. The north node says, but this is where you need to grow. And Leslie's are fascinating. She has a Libra South Node and an Aries North Node. Her Libra South Node can fall back on relationships, approval, accommodating other people, and defining herself through someone else. But her Aries North Node is asking for almost exactly the opposite. Aries says, Who are you? What do you want? Make your own decisions, stand on your own. So if I had to boil down Leslie's nodal journey down to one sentence, it would be, who do I need to be for you? And then becoming, who am I? And the young Leslie went dramatically in the opposite direction. She surrendered her name, her identity, and eventually her own judgment to Manson and the family. But here's where it gets even more interesting. Her north node is in the eighth house. And the eighth house deals with some of astrology's heavier territory: power, psychological transformation, crisis, death, rebirth, and rebuilding yourself after profound change. And look at the course of Leslie's life. After Manson, she spent decades having to figure out who Leslie Van Houten was separate from Charlie, separate from the family, and separate from Lulu. Then we have a Mars in Cancer, and Mars is how we act, fight, and express anger. Cancer is emotional, protective, and deeply connected to family and belonging. And Leslie found herself something literally called the family. Mars and cancer isn't typically the image we have of cold, detached aggression. It's actions that can come from emotional loyalty, defensiveness, and the feeling that you're protecting your people or your tribe. And again, millions of people have Mars and cancer and don't commit murder. So we're just looking here at symbolism, right? Not destiny. But when we're examining Leslie's story, that connection between action, emotion, belonging is certainly interesting. And the astrology didn't turn Leslie Van Houten into Lulu, but her chart really does seem to make a lot of sense on struggling with her identity. Out Leslie Van Houten in a nutshell. Excellent.
SPEAKER_01Where hippies gone wrong. Because I will tell you, I feel like the people in the family were really hippie lifestyle y. When you bring in a biker gang, that kind of I know what's that about protection. Doesn't really fit. But that was all Charlie. You know, he was definitely not a hippie. He just ingratiated him, you know, made that his world. And and she was involved in it.
SPEAKER_00In the movie, so I don't know as much as you know, but in the movie, there are a group of bikers that come to the ranch, and one of the bikers hooks up with Leslie or Lulu, right? Danny DiCarlo. Yeah. And at the end of the movie, I don't know if I'm going to ruin this for everybody, but at the end of the movie, she's in prison and she's reflecting on the time. And apparently the biker guy tried to take her with him. And so she goes back and thinks about what if I would have gone? You know what I mean? Like none of this would have happened. I would be free. I would have gone with this guy, you know, made a different choice.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. I can't believe people said yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can't either.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, Linda Kasabian, who'd gone along with them, she was not having any of this. And she didn't call 911 or but she didn't actively participate. She was there. Did she stay in the car the whole time? She got out at the Tate House. They all walked up. She stayed outside. And Susan Atkins told her, listen for sounds. I mean, how creepy is that? She saw everything that happened outside in the yard. Lynica Sabian testified for the prosecution. She was the star witness. It ended the hippie generation. Now, people were not looking at hippies as like dropouts of society or like free love. And they're looking at them like, are you all gonna kill me too? Like, what is up? Like, oh, he's a hippie. Oh, they have a bad name. Now, quite frankly, I feel like that hippie movement would have just gone away, you know, eventually.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it was fizzling out anyway, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Fizzling out, that's it. But the Manson family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Manson was not a hippie. You said that already, and I 100% agree with you.
SPEAKER_01Right. No way. He was just a con man. And their communal living was different from other communal livings. I mean, if you go and look at sociology and see like what communal living really is, it's not dumpster diving for vegetables, and it's not going out and committing murder. I mean, the only thing that Charlie did lawfully was have Linda Kasabian drive because she had a driver's license. I mean, what? Who cares? I just, you know, and he picked the wrong driver. And I will tell you, I feel like Leslie is right behind Linda. Like, I think with her culpability, they're both culpable in that way. But Leslie participated, but I don't think she would have stabbed unless Tex told her to. Like you said, she was just trying to like find her way, trying to people please. And because she was living in California, and that's where a lot of the hippie movement was happening, she just got pulled in.
SPEAKER_00Didn't they all shave their heads in prison, too? All three girls.
SPEAKER_01During the trial, Charlie was giving them messages. He was sending kites, which is notes in secret. But he showed up to trial one day with his head shaved. The next day, the girls had shaved their heads. He carved an X on his forehead. The next day at trial, the girls had an X on their forehead. He turned it into a swastika. Their lawyer said, Look, every time you do what he does, you are aligning yourself with him and you need to be separating yourself from him. So they stopped at the X. But the whole family shaved their head and put X's on their faces. I mean, it wasn't just the girls in trial.
SPEAKER_00He really had a hold over them. I think, too, like, had his luck gone a different way, like the producer Terry said, Yeah, I'll take a look at your music and do all he would have dropped that family so fast and gone to LA and tried to be a musician. Like he didn't think of his family the way the family thought of him.
SPEAKER_01That is the best thing that I could have even mentioned was that that's exactly right. He would have left out of there and they would have never seen him again. And, you know, there are theories that Charlie was afraid that Tex was going to be in charge. And it's like, I don't think so. I think what you said is a thousand percent correct. I think that if he had gotten a record deal or even something, he would have just jetted out and that would have been it, and none of this would have happened. I will say that his songs weren't bad. Even Vincent Bugliosi, who wrote Helter Skelter and was the prosecutor, said that he had listened to some of Charlie's music and that Charlie played music for him. And he's like, who's not that bad? I mean, he's actually kind of good. And Guns N' Roses agreed because they have a cover song. They did a cover of one of his songs called Look at Your Game Girl. That's Charlie Manson. Guns and Roses, Look at Your Game Girl. Wow. As I mentioned before, the Beach Boys, the song Charlie song was called Cease to Exist, but they named it Never Learn Not to Love. I think that if we're taking anything out of this, is that you hit the nail on the head. If he had received a record deal or found interest in the entertainment business, this would never have happened. He was just looking for his next con or job. His songs weren't terrible. I think that Dennis Wilson should not have had the Beach Boys cover one of his songs.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And not give Charlie any royalty or credit or anything. That's what I mean. It's not cover, it's stolen. Yeah. At least put his name there. And I will say that I don't even know if they knew Nansen wrote that song.
SPEAKER_00He probably didn't share that. Well, thank you for joining me again and telling this story. I find it so interesting, and I'm gonna go check out those songs for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me. I love being on your show. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Start thinking of your next bad girl. I will. The Femme Fatal. Created and hosted by Stacy Dodson. Produced by Mark Williams. Music by Marcia Yingling, Chad Shake, and Greg Loicano.